Jesuits -- Why are they supposedly liberal?

[lutherlic]

I for one am very uncomfortable with such labels as conservative and liberal, because they have taken on a moral quality. Once labels are used to measure the moral character of a man, the label as outlived its usefulness. No one should measure the moral character of another person. We can only measure the moral character of actions, not people.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother JR, I agree if we are talking about political leanings or judging the general morality of someone.

However, I feel there is a valid need in discussion to differentiate those who profess beliefs contrary (sometimes frequently, significantly and loudly) to Church teaching vs. those whose intentions are to be completely faithful and obedient. It seams to me (and I might be wrong) that liberal and conservative labels are used in that sense here.

If liberal and conservative carry to much baggage from the political world, then maybe other words would be better to represent the spectrum. Of course, there shouldn’t be a spectrum of “how Catholic” people or groups are but sadly we know there is. Having words, labels, facilitates discussion of the problem head-on.

 

[system]

I have a great respect for the history of the Jesuit order. But far too many posts on this thread dismiss what is a valid question. What’s the answer? There seem to be a vast number of liberal Jesuits. Don’t like the liberal label? Too bad. It fits. The liberals on tis thread don’t seem to like being categorized as such but again, too bad. You either believe the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church or you don’t. If you don’t the exits are clearly marked and the alternatives are plentiful. Liberals want the Church to change and modernize to conform to contemporary norms and standards while conservatives believe that the Truth doesn’t change just because it doesn’t suit us. Liberals are content to fall in line with relativism while conservatives resist the currents on modernity.

I can;t say how many Jesuits are liberal but those in powerful positions and institutions of higher learning certainly are. There are thankfully exceptions like Fr. Mitch Pacwa but they are scarce.

God bless.

 

[eaglean]

I’m in a bit of a dilemma and was wondering whether anybody in the forum might know some advice: I would just love to be a Jesuit, since I would like to do what Jesuits do - my main fields being research at the interface between science and theology, and issues related to social justice, migration, global economics, etc. At the same time I want to stick to traditional Church doctrine on issues such as women priests, homosexuality, and the like, and also I am not much inclined to liberation theology, process theology etc. So I’m anticipating a conflict.

My question to you all: what are your experiences / opinions? Do you think it’s possible to be a “conservative Jesuit” and nevertheless get on well in the SJ, grow spiritually, and do a good job? Or is it better to look elsewhere? If so, which religious order or organization might have a charism similar to that of SJ (science, social justice, etc.), while maintaining a more “conservative” profile?

Looking forward to your answers. Thanks,

guardai in alto

Can anyone help answer this question? I am discerning a vocation in the Jesuits and need to speak to a moral conservative Jesuit.

Thank you.

 

[JReducation]

Can anyone help answer this question? I am discerning a vocation in the Jesuits and need to speak to a moral conservative Jesuit.

Thank you.

I think you may need to reframe this. If you’re discerning a vocation to the religious life, let’s put the priesthood aside for a moment, because that’s another vocation.

If you’re discerning a religious vocation, you need to look at the charism of the religious community. Looking at individuals in a community may be helpful, but in the end, it’s the charism that you need to buy into.

You’re either called to live the Jesuit charism or you’re not.

You certainly have to look at the community as a whole, because you’re not joining one house or one province. You’re joining the whole package. You have to ask questions such as where are they going? What is their vision? Who do they plan on getting there? How to they live this vision every day?

The moment you start saying that you want to speak to a “moral Jesuit” that sends red flags up for any religious who is reading your post. What it says is that you’re not ready or willing to embrace the Jesuit Order, but you’re look and separating the brethren in your head. If you do that now, then you do not have a call to be a Jesuit.

You are joining them, with their nut jobs, their saints, their scholars, their dunces, their heretics and their faithful servants. They are the Society of Jesus. You’re not joining only the orthodox ones. Why not? Because it’s impossible to do that.

You may find that you may have to share a house with one of the men whom you consider to be less than orthodox. You may find that he may be your superior and that you will be bound to obey him. You may find that he may be your partner in a ministry.

Those of us who are religious do not pick and choose our brothers and sisters. We join them as they are. It’s like a marriage. You marry the person as he or she is with his or her family as it is.

Using the analogy of marriage, if you marry someone with the idea that you can change them, you’re in for trouble. If you marry someone with the idea that you’re not marrying his mother, you’re in for trouble. The spouse comes as is and so does his mother. You can’t ask him to shoot his mother.

The same applies to religious life and to secular priesthood too. Religious communities and dioceses come “As Is”. We do our best. Each person doing his or her best can transform a community or diocese.

I would recommend that you take a step back to rethink your expectations.

1. You may not have a call to religious life, because you are not ready to embrace the religious community as is.
2. You may have a call to religious life and you never realized that no matter what religious community you join, you have to embrace it as is.

There is no such thing as a community where everyone is on board with everything. The larger the religious communities, the more lose canons that we have. Isn’t that the same in a biological family?

You must fall in love with the charism and accept the brethren as they are. Then you know that you have a vocation to that community. It makes no difference whether you’re looking at Jesuits or Alexians. We begin with the charism and the acceptance.

I would suggest that you spend time with the Jesuits. See if you belong in this crowd. You may find that they are not as horrible as people paint them out to be or you may find that their charism is not for you. You won’t know until you spend time with them. Don’t base your judgment on a sample or on other people’s opinions. Let their charism talk for itself. If it’s for you, you’ll feel the draw.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[roveau]

…(snip)…
I would suggest that you spend time with the Jesuits. See if you belong in this crowd. You may find that they are not as horrible as people paint them out to be or you may find that their charism is not for you. You won’t know until you spend time with them. Don’t base your judgment on a sample or on other people’s opinions. Let their charism talk for itself. If it’s for you, you’ll feel the draw.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Dear brother, thank you for your insightful comments again.

Could you tell us the ways one could spend time with Jesuits (or actually any order for that matter)? Is it possible to actually live or work (volunteer) with an order for a while to see if one is suited to them and their charism?

 

[JReducation]

Dear brother, thank you for your insightful comments again.

Could you tell us the ways one could spend time with Jesuits (or actually any order for that matter)? Is it possible to actually live or work (volunteer) with an order for a while to see if one is suited to them and their charism?

Most communities have opportunities to spend time with them. Some have a “Come and See” for a few weeks. Others have opportunities to volunteer for a year in their ministry. For example, the Jesuits have JVC (Jesuit Volunteer Corps). You get to live and work in community with the Jesuits and other lay people. The Capuchin Franciscans have Cap Corps, the same thing. Many religious communities have Associates. Associates spend a lot of time with the community at prayer, work, play and in community functions.

Anyone interested in more exposure to a religious community should contact the Vocation Director for that community. They’ll tell you what opportunities they have to experience their life and work.

To the best of my knowledge the only communities that you have to take “sight unseen” are the Trappists, Carthusians and Camaldolese. They are what they are. You can’t go further than the guesthouse, one of them comes to you, you don’t go to them.

I don’t know if they still have this, but the Carthusians had a prohibition about lay people seeing them pray or at mass. If you visited, you attended Sunday mass in the guest house, not the monastery church. One of the hermits came to you. I don’t know if they still do this. But that was a close as you got.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[eaglean]

Dear JReducation,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I really appreciate how much time and effort you have put into answering questions in this thread.

I wish to be able to communicate with a Jesuit who shares the Church’s teachings on issues of morality not just publicly but personally. Nothing is clear at the moment. Possibly different Jesuit communities in different countries for example are different, but I need to speak to a Jesuit who either shares different beliefs, or can appreciate those different beliefs - seeking the inherent truth of the argument. Upon a previous recommendation, I have read about the declaration of obedience to the Magisterium made in 2008;

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2008/mar/08031108
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801316.htm

Depending upon the version, it gives a slightly different take on the situation. The first presents a more consistent series of events. The second does not give me assurance that Father Adolfo Nicolás is concerned about the moral issues identified (or implied) by Pope Benedict for the sake of the truth of the matter itself. A deep concern may be present but is not or has not been made or reported as evident. Rather, for whatever reason (good or bad - independent of intention), the response appears political. By “moral conservative”, I am referring to the antithesis of an embodiment of an unconcern with respect to the consequences of immorality.

With respect to this particular appeal to reason, at another forum, I have written; “There exist obvious deviations from accepted beliefs regarding for example, the nature of exclusive homosexuality, and sex based difference in humanity. There is no rational basis for either of these positions (neither exclusive homosexuality or gender independence is natural) and they are unequivocally declared illegitimate by the Church, and yet the situation remains as is.”

 

[JReducation]

Dear JReducation,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I really appreciate how much time and effort you have put into answering questions in this thread.

I wish to be able to communicate with a Jesuit who shares the Church’s teachings on issues of morality not just publicly but personally. Nothing is clear at the moment. Possibly different Jesuit communities in different countries for example are different, but I need to speak to a Jesuit who either shares different beliefs, or can appreciate those different beliefs - seeking the inherent truth of the argument. Upon a previous recommendation, I have read about the declaration of obedience to the Magisterium made in 2008;

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2008/mar/08031108
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801316.htm

Depending upon the version, it gives a slightly different take on the situation. The first presents a more consistent series of events. The second does not give me assurance that Father Adolfo Nicolás is concerned about the moral issues identified (or implied) by Pope Benedict for the sake of the truth of the matter itself. A deep concern may be present but is not or has not been made or reported as evident. Rather, for whatever reason (good or bad - independent of intention), the response appears political. By “moral conservative”, I am referring to the antithesis of an embodiment of an unconcern with respect to the consequences of immorality.

With respect to this particular appeal to reason, at another forum, I have written; “There exist obvious deviations from accepted beliefs regarding for example, the nature of exclusive homosexuality, and sex based difference in humanity. There is no rational basis for either of these positions (neither exclusive homosexuality or gender independence is natural) and they are unequivocally declared illegitimate by the Church, and yet the situation remains as is.”

Let’s see if this helps. When I first heard the call to the religious life was after reading the life of St. Francis of Assisi. I fell in love with the man and his charism. What his friars believed or did not believe was irrelevant to me. What the founder handed down was the ticket.

After spending time with the friars, I found out the Francis founded three orders and they have many branches. In total, there are more than 100 Franciscan obediences. I began to visit them. I did not interview them on their orthodoxy. I observed their daily life. I finally found an obedience where I felt at home.

That’s how you discern religious life. You visit, you spend time with the religious and when you feel that you’re home, you know that it’s time to take the next step.

You’re trying to clarify for yourself the fidelity of the Jesuits. Fidelity is important, but that’s now how you discern a vocation. They may be the most faithful men, but if the charism is not a good fit, then it’s not your vocation to be a Jesuit.

Focus on the charism of the Society of Jesus. Study the writings of Ignatius and his life. Study the Jesuit saints. Find out about their work. Spend time with them. You’ll learn enough about their fidelity and their charism to know if this is the way of life to which God is calling you.

Remember what I said, you’re joining them. They are not joining you. You have to accept them as they are or look to another community. Like every family, they’re going to have strengths and weaknesses. Knowing them closely, I can assure you that they have many more strengths than weaknesses.

The articles that you linked are both flawed. Each author has a point of view. I don’t doubt the veracity of what the articles say. I can see, just by the mistakes that they make in terminology, that they don’t undestand the 4th vow of the Jesuits. They have never vowed unquestioning obedience to the pope. Franciscans are the only ones who do that. Jesuits vow to go where the pope sends them without questioning. There have been issues within many Jesuit colleges on some very important moral points. This is a concern to the Holy Father. But I suggest that we wait to see if the Jesuit’s statement is made available to the public to judge their response.

If there are two groups that Catholics love to hate are the Jesuits and religious brothers. I just chuckle, because I don’t think that most people actually hate us. It’s a good sport to pretend.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[choliks]

Maybe because such universities try to limit their religious teachings to the right places? Sorry but I take pride that my Jesuit-run Catholic University accepts all kinds of teachers/students whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Liberal, or Conservative. The emphasis has always been in the quality of education first and then religious stuff second.

However, if you were to step into a Theology class, you will find a great deal that is being taught is still the Catholic viewpoint. That’s the beauty of it. It gives you the choice of whether or not you really are interested in learning about the faith (via picking the subjects through your courses) or simply wanna come out as a nurse, accountant with no religious strings attached etc.

Well you have a point, that does sound a lot like what happened here. However, I’m not sure if my university runs on federal funding. It’s a private institution but also regarded as one of the best in my country. It also takes pride in being the most open compared to other religious-run universities, which is why our diversity is comparable to ones like UP.

I think maybe that instead of federal funding, it’s simply a matter of how much extra money comes from taking in minority groups. Furthermore, I live in Mindanao which has a long history of conflict between Muslim and Catholic Filipinos so rejecting non-Catholics (Muslims in particular) might actually jeopardize the branch I attend (socially or even physically).

Still, the financial urgency is probably the same. Whatever the Franciscans had that made them go a little longer without needing extra cash, the Jesuits sure didn’t have it. :\

[Other forums call this thread necromancy. I just don’t know if the thread will divine the future. LOL. Anyways, i apologize if it’s not allowable.]

I would just like to add to lostwanderer’s posts.

I believe lostwanderer and I belong to the same Jesuit-run system of Universities (though LW is from the south, and I from the north of the Philippines). Anyway… during my time in the university, ALL regular students are REQUIRED to take 12 units of Theology. That’s 4 courses of 3 units each (with 16 units of Philosophy to boot).

Here’s the overview of the current curriculum: admu.edu.ph/soh/global/system.php?LS=staticpages&id=1279179977277

on with the topic… could it be that the Jesuits were labeled “liberal” because some of them have “radical” methodologies? And to some people, being radical is no different from being liberal?

 

[Anne_Erkkila]

Labels such as conservative and liberal are very dangerous, because they tend to have an emotional and subjective judgment attached to them. One is best not to use them or use them with great caution. We should not always assume that conservative is good and liberal is wrong either. There is no such guarrantee. A better way of saying this is to look at whether an individual’s beliefs on an issue are consistent with Church teaching or not. In those cases when they are inconsistent, it is important to ask why not.

Sometimes a scholar, such as a Jesuit, Dominican or one of the other great teaching orders and societies may pose a statement or an argument for something that is inconsistent with the Church, not because the person is trying to push heresy, but because the person is a scholar and his or job is to make people think. Thinking is a good thing. We do have to think, even about those things that are inconsistent with Church teaching. How can we know what we reject if we do not examine it?

Often, scholars, such as Jesuits, are given a bad rap because they put topics and ideas on the table that make many people uncomfortable. But they are not always put on the table as a substitute for Catholic teaching, but as a fact. What I mean by that is that a scholar will sometimes put something on the table because others in fact do think and believe this or that which is inconsistent with Church teaching. It would be hiding our heads in the sand to pretend that these ideas are not out there and not look at them carefully.

I would never say that the Jesuits are liberal and the Augustinians are conservative (just an example). I would say that the Jesuits have a reputation for challenging our belief system and they have done a great deal of good for the Church when they have done this, because it has triggered an orthodox response from the other side, a response that may remain in hiding, if someone had not drawn our attention to the question or the issue.

Are there individuals who are less orthodox and actually believe some of the points that they make? Of course there are. Are they limited to the Jesuits? Absolutely not. In fact, the Jesuits continue to make an important contribtuion to the world of theological discourse and theological research in the Church. They have written many wonderful books, preached wonderful homilies and delivered some great lectures in classrooms.

We have to be careful to avoid labeling an entire community. I’m thinking of the Trappists. They do not enjoy the fame of the Jesuits, because they do not teach at universities. However, they are a leading force in writing mystical theology. Many would consider them conservative, because they are monastic. But they have produced some rather interesting writings in the area of mystical theology, writings that are not consistent with Catholic mysticism. But no one labels the Trappists as liberal, because of the way they live.

Let us be careful and sparing with the terms conservative and orthodox and look more for the person whose positions are orthodox, even if they challenge us with some unorthodox questions. Remember, the fact that someone challenges us with unorthodox questions does not necessarily mean that the person subscribes to that position. It can be. But it can also be that the person is doing his job, to study the faith from every possible angle.

The Society of Jesus has produced many great saints and also led the way in defining her teachings more clearly. It deserves our respect and gratitude.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Anne_Erkkila]

You are always the voice of reason. Thank you Br. JR