Jesuits

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Dear Br. JR,

Thank you for explaining a great deal more about the Jesuits. I am much more encouraged about them, to say the least!

I understand about the differences in charism from order to order, but my concern has been more the faithfulness (or lack of it) to the teachings of the Church. That’s what has been so disappointing in hearing nothing positive said of Jesuits (until this discussion, that is). It’s one thing to discuss whatever topic comes up–which I completely agree with–but another to question whether or not the Church is correct in her teaching on it. But, someone will ask me, “Give me an example” and I really don’t want to get into that discussion. One, because my initial query has been answered and, two, because it really doesn’t matter. If someone is faithful in teaching the truth, then it doesn’t matter what order they are part of or not. And if someone dissents from that truth, then it still doesn’t matter. But I, obviously, need to be more careful not to make statements that are taken as “blanket” statements. Out of 20,000 Jesuits there are bound to be those at both ends of extreme and whole lot more in the middle. But it is still encouraging to hear of people’s positive experiences with them. Very, very encouraging!

Thanks to everyone for the discussion!
Tracy
 
I believe that Tracy has hit the nail on the head.
  1. Every family has lose canons. A family of 20,000 is going to have more than mos families. Trust me, I belong to a religious family of 1.7 million.
  2. In every family there are going to be disagreements, questions and challenges. The Church is a very large family. It’s not excempt from human dynamics.
One day, my 21-year old son came to visit me at the fraternity. He and I began a conversation about the Church’s leadership and some things that he disagrees with. He made a very funny observation when we discussed the bishops and the fact that they are the successors of the apostles. He threw his hands up in the air and asked me, “WHAT THE HECK WAS JESUS THINKING WHEN HE HIRED THIS CROWD?” I rolled over laughing.

But it was very real. Jesus did not pick the sharpest tools in the shed. He picked the ones with the most potential for growth. Those are usually the ones who are on the bottom rung of the ladder and he slowly guides them up the ladder.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Hi,

I attend Saint Louis University, which is a Jesuit college, and there is an active Jesuit presence here. I’m not sure what you think is wrong with the Jesuits. I have interactions with Scholastics, regents, and senior Jesuits, in fact my spiritual director is one! I see nothing wrong with the way they conduct themselves. Their religious followings of the church is no different than that of the Dominicans I also know here, yes they have a different way of approaching spirituality, but that i besides the point.

As far as the novitiate goes, they aren’t sitting there trying to get you to join. They are teaching you about their spirituality and putting you into exercises, working in a poor country and other such events so you can decide if this is really what you are being called to do. The way of the Jesuit isn’t the way of the light hearted. Also, The Jesuits at final vows make 4 vows, poverty, chastity, obedience to their superior, and the final is obedience to the pope directly. Which means the pope, can write a letter addressed specifically to a Jesuit, and they by their vows will obey his request. So, if there are problems, it is more with specific individuals than with the Society as a whole.

The Jesuits, are well educated, Pope Benedict even acknowledged that the Jesuits due to their training and the nature of the Society, can go places and reach people others can’t. But that means being on the frontiers, where as someone else stated, the lines between what is right and wrong isn’t always black and white, and so they pray and follow the course that they believe is best in line with the church, and if they do cross the line they are made aware of that, and they do step back. It’s not like they go out go against the church and keep doing so, as stated they answer to their superiors and when their superiors tell them they have crossed the line they do listen and alter what they were doing or teaching.

So, I’m not sure why they are given such a bad rap. Before the got pulled out of China, they were making more progress than any other religious order that had been sent there before.
 
I don’t know of very many Jesuit university, but I will look. There are very many great Jesuits and like all orders you still have have some that just need to be better informed. Fr. Mitch as mentioned is a wonderful Jesuit priest. On the other hand Fr. Thomas Reese needs our prayers for redirection of his life. I just recently found out my Great-grandfather had 2 cousins that were Jesuit priests. One has passed on and the other, Fr. Richard Rosenfelder spent close to 30 years of missionary work in India. Always pray for vocations.
 
Hello everyone I hope you all had a blessed thanksgiving. This is my first post :o, if I make any mistakes please bear with me. I am currrently discerning whether I have Jesuit vocation. I met with Jesuit priests and novices a few months age in Culver City, CA. I felt comfortable at the novitiate and the people there were very welcoming. I hope and pray that things go well for me. I agree, some are excellent Jesuits and others need our prayers, but thats life. Some us are good Catholics others need many prayers. 🙂
 
The Society of Jesus is a fascinating group. If I were smart enough, may have joined them. Beside the fact that the Franciscans are also fascinating and charming. 😃 Ok, enough of that.

The Society of Jesus is s a fascinating group in so many way. Historically, they were the first religious men not to be part of a religious order. The Jesuits are not an order or even a congregation. They are a clerical society in vows, what we call clerks regular. That had never existed before. Many religious felt that they were thieves. They had stolen the rights and privileges that come from vows, without the having to commit to the common life. Jesuits are rather independent creatures as afar as their movement around the world and the Church.

They were the first scholars to be allowed to teach the bishops. Prior to that Franciscans and Dominicans had taught clergy, but not bishops. In fact, no one taught bishops But the Jesuits were invited into the Episcopal palaces to teach the bishops theology. They had some important connections in high places, once the teacher, always the master. Thus they came to be looked upon with great suspicion by religious, clergy and laity, especially the royalty who had always had the bishop’s ear.

Then came the missions. While everyone was trying to convert using the standard format, by preaching form the Catechism, the Jesuits began to convert by preaching from the local customs, beliefs, and even using local languages and dress. All this talk about mass and the form the language and so forth is great. But we have forgotten that the Jesuits in Asia learned Mandarin and translated the missal into Mandarin. The Great Francis Xavier tried to peach as a humble priest and was a total failure. Realizing that he needed the support of the monarchy in Japan, he threw out his shabby cassock, dawned an elegant robe, purchased fancy gifts for the emperor and went to pay a call. The emperor was so pleased that he had bulletins posted that the people were to honor this ambassador from the West. So Francis proceeded to preach, not as a simple priest, but as a great ambassador from the West to the emperor and from the emperor to the people.

Back then and even today, many would see this as compromising the faith. The truth is that it made Francis Xavier one of the greatest missionaries of all time and the model of mission work. His brother Jebbies have learned a great deal from him.

Like these, there were many things about the Jesuits that made them different from other religious and from secular priests. They are not secular priests, because they may vows. They are not monks or friars, because they do not live in tightly bound communities. What the heck are they? They are Jesuits. They are an exception to every rule of religious and secular life and this is the way that Christ wanted it to be. That’s why he gave them to us as a gift to his Church.

Franciscans and Jebbies have never understood each other, but have had a mutual admiration society for 500 years.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I graduated from a jesuit run university and am proud to have been taught by some very faithful, orthodox, scholarly Jesuit priests. Alas, that was 25 years ago and all of those priests who taught me have either retired or passed on. The Jesuits who I remember were obedient to the magisterium, and used their erudite scholarship to DEFEND THE FAITH, not question it. Unlike an earlier poster who describes modern Jesuits as " called to be on the frontiers, where the issues are not black and white", they once stood for the truth, and taught it in a scholarly way, unapologetically. Once a great order, the Jesuits now largely focus on leftist identity politics. And their universities are often only nominally catholic. They are a far cry from what they used to be. Pray for them, that they might return to what they once were.

Ishii
 
ishii said:
I graduated from a jesuit run university and am proud to have been taught by some very faithful, orthodox, scholarly Jesuit priests. Alas, that was 25 years ago and all of those priests who taught me have either retired or passed on. The Jesuits who I remember were obedient to the magisterium, and used their erudite scholarship to DEFEND THE FAITH, not question it. Unlike an earlier poster who describes modern Jesuits as " called to be on the frontiers, where the issues are not black and white", they once stood for the truth, and taught it in a scholarly way, unapologetically. Once a great order, the Jesuits now largely focus on leftist identity politics. And their universities are often only nominally catholic. They are a far cry from what they used to be. Pray for them, that they might return to what they once were.

Ishii
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Do we really want them to return to a world that no longer exists? It is one thing to persevere in orthodoxy and obedience. It is another to aspire to recreate a what no longer is. Part of fidelity is also finding faith filled responses to issues that are not black and white. Our Church has done this for centuries. When we finally find responses for those situations, new ones come up. That’s how the Jesuits were forn. They were a faith response to a situationt that had no black and white solution It was so complex, that as I said in my post above, St. Ignatius had to ivent a form of religious life that no one has in the Church. The Jesuits are the only ones who have this blend between religious canons and secular clerks. There is not such animal anywhere else in the Church. You’re either a religious, a religious canon, a secular canon, secular clerk and with the Jesuits a clerk regular.

The Jesuits have a long tradition of reinventing the wheel and getting burned for it. But in the end, they have served the needs of the Church. We as a Church must stand with them. To put distance between them and us is to do the same thing that the Jews did with the sinful people of their time. The Pharisees did not eat with tax collectors. The Judeans did not eaat with Samaritans. The Maccabees did not trust the Romans and the list gets longer Christ, on the other hand, climbed the cross between two sinners. And Mary stood at the foot of the cross with those who assasinated her son. Which model of Catholicism do we want?

Do we want to put distance between us and those whom we judge to be wrong, just like the Old Law or do we want to live in the New Law and place ourselves in between men like the Jesuits and support them and defend them when others attack. If a Catholic can attack a Jesuit, so can a Mulim, a Lutheran, a Jew, an atheis and we Catholics have to suck it up. We started the attack.

Never attack your brother unless you want your neighbors to join you. Instead, invite him to tea and tell him how you feel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
Do we want to put distance between us and those whom we judge to be wrong, just like the Old Law or do we want to live in the New Law and place ourselves in between men like the Jesuits and support them and defend them when others attack. If a Catholic can attack a Jesuit, so can a Mulim, a Lutheran, a Jew, an atheis and we Catholics have to suck it up. We started the attack.

Never attack your brother unless you want your neighbors to join you. Instead, invite him to tea and tell him how you feel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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I think we have to be careful not to take this idea too far either.

I can criticize my mother, but that doesn’t give you the right to criticize my mother. Family is family and we stick together even while we correct one another. Just because I may criticize Jesuits (or anyone in a position of teaching authority) for not being faithful to the teachings of the Church does not automatically make it a free-for-all of criticism for everyone else. Just try that with a Muslim and you’ll see the point. They also criticize their own, but we had better not!

In the Catholic Church we have the right to question even our bishops and point out when they err against Church teaching. Did not St. Catherine of Siena, respectfully, point out to the Pope himself where his responsibilities lay?

It is true that we should approach these things in charity and try in every way possible to come to agreement. However, when something is clearly against Church teaching, charity also requires rebuke when there is no indication of repentance and change. Our present situation with Catholic politicians supporting abortion is a case in point.

Scripture is clear that those who teach are held to a higher accountability, so it is important that when those who teach stray from the truth, they are called on it so they don’t endanger their souls.

Tracy
 
Tracy_Spenst said:
Scripture is clear that those who teach are held to a higher accountability, so it is important that when those who teach stray from the truth, they are called on it so they don’t endanger their souls.

Tracy
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But they are called on it, it’s not like they make a mistake and then even after being told by the church it is wrong they keep teaching it. They teach their understanding of the church, because I doubt any one has an absolute understanding of the Church, and when the Church corrects them they accept it. They are by their charisms required to spend time every day looking over the day, and seeing how they have followed God and how they have failed to follow God. So they actively pray and look into their actions, especially when they are in those gray areas.

To whoever said they should return to their scholarly way of teaching, you realize Saint Ignatius formed the Jesuits, to be missionaries, to go out wherever the pope needed him. And the Frontiers doesn’t just mean other countries, it also means her in the United States, at the frontiers of Science and medicine, not every technology developed is clear black and white in it’s morality, so the Jesuits have to look at it and what they understand the Church to teach, and what they feel the Holy Spirit is moving within them and give a teaching about it. But again, they aren’t always right, and they will allow themselves to be corrected. But being called to the frontiers isn’t anything new, that has always been part of the Jesuits, Their religious order allows them to go places academically, and otherwise that many other religious orders can’t., And as for questioning the Faith, I think you may misunderstand the way of their Spirituality, and they way that they will teach. They won’t give you just one side, they will show you both. This isn’t an example from academia but perhaps it will give you an idea of how they work. They will ask what things about being married give you life/appeal to you. Then they will turn around and ask what things about it don’t sit with you, and doesn’t appeal to you? Then they will turn around and ask those exact same questions regarding religious life. They are trying to truly teach, if you tell someone this is the way it is, without telling them the otherside of the argument, or how to answer or defend against attacks from the opposing view, whatever they taught will simply crumble the first time it is questioned.

How can they refuse to address the situation and developments of this modern age? If they won’t go out into the gray areas and try and establish and apply the churches teachings then who will? Who will teach and guide the upcoming generations about everything that is happening in the world around them? They Jesuits, willingly step forth to go into these places to try and establish church teaching and apply church teaching in these gray areas. Yes, they know full well that they will probably be questioned and attacked for doing so. But Jesus knew his ministry would bring about his death, but that didn’t stop him. The Jesuits, and I’m sure many other religious orders, are willing to put aside their pride to go out and help teach people. Look at the Jesuits martyrs in El Salvador. They taught against the oligarchy, and for the fair treatment of the poor, for fair wages, and that they should have access to schooling. They were threatened through it all, and in the end were hauled out of their home in the middle of the night and shot execution style. They were willing to die, to bring church teachings to an area that didn’t want to hear it, it is no different in the area of academia, or anywhere else. You attack them for going against the Church, I would bet if we had the church scrutinize everything you said, since you left college for instance, that we could find things you said and possibly taught to a friend that were against church teaching. Because that is how it is for the JEsuits, they are constantly under the microscope, everything they are saying and teaching is being picked apart and reviewed. So you say the fact that you have found examples of them messing up says that they are doing bad and have fallen away. I think it shows they are human, and the fact that you don’t hear more about how they Jesuits are going against church teaching tells you they are applying church teaching to the frontiers far better than you realize, because they are under the microscope, not only from the Church but they lay who are trying to find things wrong with them.

anyway, Gog Bless
 
JReducation said:
The Great Francis Xavier tried to peach as a humble priest and was a total failure. Realizing that he needed the support of the monarchy in Japan, he threw out his shabby cassock, dawned an elegant robe, purchased fancy gifts for the emperor and went to pay a call. The emperor was so pleased that he had bulletins posted that the people were to honor this ambassador from the West. So Francis proceeded to preach, not as a simple priest, but as a great ambassador from the West to the emperor and from the emperor to the people.

Back then and even today, many would see this as compromising the faith. The truth is that it made Francis Xavier one of the greatest missionaries of all time and the model of mission work. His brother Jebbies have learned a great deal from him.
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Very timely, thanks Br. JR!
 
nicreap said:
Because that is how it is for the JEsuits, they are constantly under the microscope, everything they are saying and teaching is being picked apart and reviewed. So you say the fact that you have found examples of them messing up says that they are doing bad and have fallen away. I think it shows they are human, and the fact that you don’t hear more about how they Jesuits are going against church teaching tells you they are applying church teaching to the frontiers far better than you realize, because they are under the microscope, not only from the Church but they lay who are trying to find things wrong with them.

anyway, Gog Bless
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nicreap, I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this post. My comment was in general for whoever teaches–I wasn’t targeting Jesuits (even if this thread started about them) in responding to another poster.

No one here is trying to find things wrong with the Jesuits. If anything, I was hoping to receive some real encouragement about the Order because I have a great admiration for St. Ignatius. I hate to see the “descendants” of the great saints losing what those saints worked so hard to build. In addition, I have one son who is considering the priesthood. At one time he thought he’d like to be a Jesuit, but when I’ve asked friends about them, I didn’t receive any positive comments.

So far I haven’t “picked them apart” at all. I’ve expressed concern that up until this discussion, with only a couple of exceptions, I’ve heard nothing positive about the Jesuits of our time . Through this discussion I’ve heard of others who are having positive experiences of faithfulness from Jesuits, but also from some who have, apparently, had negative experiences.

The point of my comment was rather simple–those who claim to teach in the name of the Church will be held to a higher accountability before God than those who simply discuss religion with their friends. The average Catholic in the pew does not claim to be a teacher of the Faith in the same manner a Jesuit does. To hold both to the same standard is to overstate the issue.

Tracy
 
I know you weren’t trying to find fault with the Jesuits, I was just trying to give an explanation to why people in the modern day think the Jesuits are some radical group, trust me I have heard it a lot even on this campus. I agree those who teach do need to be held to a higher accountability, but as I said they are also working in a gray area, so them trying to teach church matters in those gray areas, would be like the average person trying to explain well known church teachings. They are often given a lot of grief, not by people here but in general because they will make a statement or do something that in hindsight wasn’t with the church, and people make it sound like they are out to undermine the church.

I apologize if you thought I was singling you out.
 
Thanks to everyone for posting. This has been an incredible journey reading all the posts. It is because of Jesuits that I am now in RCIA. Not a Jesuit, per se, but simply the word Jesuit. It’s a long story and I won’t go into the gruesome details but it was from trying to figure out all about Jesuits that I stumbled upon Ignatius and the Spiritual Exercises. These “exercises” opened my eyes to my spirituality and, from there, was able to feel the gentle “nudge” of the Holy Spirit. I have spent over a year reading and studying all about Catholicism and know that I am where I am supposed to be.

I have mentioned this story to several people and told them how I originally did not know that Jesuits were Catholic. They respond that most Catholics would still say that Jesuits are not Catholic. I have not pressed them for the reason why.

Nevertheless, this thread speaks to me and encourages me about Jesuits. Who knows where it might lead? [rhetorical question]

Mark
 
Thanks to everyone for posting. This has been an incredible journey reading all the posts. It is because of Jesuits that I am now in RCIA. Not a Jesuit, per se, but simply the word Jesuit. It’s a long story and I won’t go into the gruesome details but it was from trying to figure out all about Jesuits that I stumbled upon Ignatius and the Spiritual Exercises. These “exercises” opened my eyes to my spirituality and, from there, was able to feel the gentle “nudge” of the Holy Spirit. I have spent over a year reading and studying all about Catholicism and know that I am where I am supposed to be.

I have mentioned this story to several people and told them how I originally did not know that Jesuits were Catholic. They respond that most Catholics would still say that Jesuits are not Catholic. I have not pressed them for the reason why.

Nevertheless, this thread speaks to me and encourages me about Jesuits. Who knows where it might lead?

Mark
 
Mark,

I’m glad this thread has been helpful to you–it’s certainly been educational for me!

What a joy to hear you’re entering the Church! I trust this time of preparation will be a joy-filled time for you. Welcome Home!

Tracy 🙂
 
JReducation said:
If you want to see real levity, you must attend a theology class with Jesuits, Dominicans and Franciscans in the same room. Trust me, I’ve been there. It’s a riot.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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Just as long as it’s not over lunch.

FOOD FIGHT!!!
 
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