Jesus and his actual brothers? And Mary not being a perpetual virgin. How to refute this Protestant attack?

[JohnR77]

Besides, that would still make them cousins so it doesn’t solve the problem why he’s referred to as a brother.

Hi John,
I addressed that on this mirror? thread here.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11960645&postcount=21

An earlier post identified James, son of Alphaeus/Cleopas, as the brother of Jesus but that’s a novel modern theory that flies in the face of Church tradition which identifies them as different persons and different saints. The same NT writers use different names so it’s highly unlikely that they’re the same person.

Jerome suggests this possibility. I don’t consider Jerome novel, but that is just my opinion. see

newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

1. What darkness, what raging madness rushing to its own destruction! … but I see you have a reason for your silence. Let me point out then what John says, John 19:25 “But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.” No one doubts that there were two apostles called by the name James, James the son of Zebedee, and James the son of Alphæus. Do you intend the comparatively unknown James the Less, who is called in Scripture the son of Mary, not however of Mary the mother of our Lord, to be an apostle, or not? If he is an apostle, he must be the son of Alphæus and a believer in Jesus, “For neither did his brethren believe in him.” If he is not an apostle, but a third James (who he can be I cannot tell), how can he be regarded as the Lord’s brother, and how, being a third, can he be called less to distinguish him from greater, when greater and less are used to denote the relations existing, not between three, but between two? Notice, moreover, that the Lord’s brother is an apostle, since Paul says, Galatians 1:18-19 "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days. But other of the Apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother." And in the same Epistle, Galatians 2:9 “And when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars,” etc. And that you may not suppose this James to be the son of Zebedee, you have only to read the Acts of the Apostles, and you will find that the latter had already been slain by Herod. The only conclusion is that the Mary who is described as the mother of James the Less was the wife of Alphæus and sister of Mary the Lord’s mother, the one who is called by John the Evangelist “Mary of Clopas,” whether after her father, or kindred, or for some other reason. But if you think they are two persons because elsewhere we read, “Mary the mother of James the Less,” and here, “Mary of Clopas,” you have still to learn that it is customary in Scripture for the same individual to bear different names. Raguel, Moses’ father-in-law, is also called Jethro. Gedeon, without any apparent reason for the change, all at once becomes Jerubbaal. Ozias, king of Judah, has an alternative, Azarias. Mount Tabor is called Itabyrium. Again Hermon is called by the Phenicians Sanior, and by the Amorites Sanir. The same tract of country is known by three names, Negebh, Teman, and Darom in Ezekiel. Peter is also called Simon and Cephas. Judas the zealot in another Gospel is called Thaddaeus. And there are numerous other examples which the reader will be able to collect for himself from every part of Scripture.
2. Now here we have the explanation of what I am endeavouring to show, how it is that the sons of Mary, the sister of our Lord’s mother, who though not formerly believers afterwards did believe, can be called brethren of the Lord. Possibly the case might be that one of the brethren believed immediately while the others did not believe until long after, and that one Mary was the mother of James and Joses, namely, “Mary of Clopas,” who is the same as the wife of Alphæus, the other, the mother of James the Less. In any case, if she (the latter) had been the Lord’s mother S. John would have allowed her the title, as everywhere else, and would not by calling her the mother of other sons have given a wrong impression. But at this stage I do not wish to argue for or against the supposition that Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary the mother of James and Joses were different women, provided it is clearly understood that Mary the mother of James and Joses was not the same person as the Lord’s mother. How then, says …

 

[JohnR77]

I always smile at this so-called Protestant claim about Mary not being a perpetual virgin because Luther and the other founders of Protestantism ALL declared in writing that Mary was a perpetual virgin! It seems Protestants cannot make up their minds about their own teachings.

Good point. Here are the quotes;

**Marys Perpetual Virginity Confirmed by Quotations of Protestant Reformers

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**

 

[PoorKnight]

Thank you and God bless you for the help, but may I ask then why St. Paul uses the actual word “cousin” in Colossians 4:10? And then calls James the brother of Jesus? Why wouldn’t he use the word “cousin” since he used it elsewhere? This is what I am stumbling over. can you help me here?

Fr. Richard Simons, who taught Koine Greek for 30 years, and who has a radio show “Fr. Simon says” on Relevant Radio, stated that in the Jewish tradition there wasn’t just tribes (Judah, Levi etc) there was also clans. Those in the clan were close relatives, if for no other reason than they lived closely together (Nazareth). The “brothers” could mean they were in the same clan, where “cousin” could be being used to denote relatives that were not in the clan.

For final annalysis, you’d have to ask Paul why he used the two different Greek terms to denote the relationships.

Bottom line, we can prove from the “bible alone” that at least some those listed as “brothers” of the Lord are not children of Mary. Therefore, logically, the term “brother” is being used in some other way than “male-person-who-shares-a-mother-with-me”. We also know that in Hebrew / Aramaic cultures the term was used with more meaning than what we think of today.

Rest assured that there is NOT a biblical conflict with the Catholic teaching on Mary’s perpetual virginity.

God Bless,

PoorKnight for Christ and His Church

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

At the crucifixion. Jesus “handed over” His mother to His disciple John. The bible says that from that day the disciple made a place for her in his home. If she had other children wouldn’t it be preferable for her to stay with them?

I am a STRONG supporter of the Blessed Virgin, but it says in Scripture that his relatives alienated themselves from Jesus. Now obviously, Mary had great faith in Jesus. So they must have distanced themselves from her too.

 

[multitude]

Good point. Here are the quotes;

Marys Perpetual Virginity Confirmed by Quotations of Protestant Reformers

Well technically they could turn around and dismiss what the original Reformers had to say. Nothing is really stopping them from doing so.

 

[BartholomewB]

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I’m looking for Catholic replies, if I wanted a non Catholic reply I would have posted my question in the “other religions” forum. Or a Protestant message board.

**Snowflake, **it’s important to bear in mind that Catholic teaching on this subject has not always been exactly what it is today. A key event was the three-way debate held in the 380’s under Pope Damasus I. Jerome was then living in Rome, where he was employed as Damasus’ secretary, and two other theologians were there for the Council of Rome: Epiphanius of Salamis and the otherwise unknown Helvidius (sometimes called “Helvetius”). Here is a summary of what they said, with the respective objections:

Helvidius: James, Jude and the other “brethren” named in Matt 13.55 and Mark 6.3 were all the children of Joseph and Mary, i.e. Jesus’ younger half-brothers and half-sisters. Objection: the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

**Epiphanius: **James, Jude, and the others were the children of Joseph’s earlier marriage. Objection: Jesus would rank as a younger son of Joseph and therefore not eligible for the Davidic succession (John 7.40-42).

**Jerome: **Joseph and Mary had no children together. James was either Jesus’ half-brother by Joseph’s earlier marriage (the Epiphanian view) or his cousin (the Hieronymian view). Objection to the latter: in the NT, adelphos can mean full brother, half-brother or stepbrother, but never “cousin”.

Remember that all three were Catholic theologians! This debate took place more than a thousand years before Luther and Calvin.

 

[JohnR77]

Objection to the latter: in the NT, adelphos can mean full brother, half-brother or stepbrother, but never “cousin”.

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Adelphos does not mean “cousin”, BUT it can mean “close relative” which includes first cousins, etc.

By the way, are you, BarholomewB, suggesting that you know Greek and how it was used back then, better than St. Jerome ?

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[BartholomewB]

Adelphos does not mean “cousin”, BUT it can mean “close relative” which includes first cousins, etc.

By the way, are you, BarholomewB, suggesting that you know Greek and how it was used back then, better than St. Jerome ?

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It was Epiphanius of Salamis, not me, who raised the objection about the limited range of meanings of the noun adelphos. Don’t blame me, I wasn’t even there at the time.