Jesus and Mary: bodies in Heaven

[hansard]

Hi, all.
I work in a Catholic high school, and was raised as a good but ignorant Catholic. So, although I should know about some of what follows, I was never really taught much about it.
A colleague (an ex-nun) said, yesterday: “There are only two people in Heaven with bodies, and they are Jesus and Mary.”

So: Catholic dogma has it that Jesus ascended to Heaven, and this was witnessed by the apostles, right? (This is clearly told in scripture.) Or, at least, they saw him ascend to a certain point, at which, presumably, he became too small for them to see… (using ordinary logic).
QUESTIONS: What happened then? At what point did Jesus change into spirit? Does he exist yet as a spirit in Heaven, awaiting his triumphant return? Or does he have a physical body in a spiritual realm?
And what about Mary, the scriptural basis of whose ascension is rather sketchy? Did she float to the sky and then become spirit at some point, or is she also in heaven with a physical body?

After listening to my colleague, I thought: Why would Jesus have a physical body, when he is God, and God is incorporeal–spirit–almost by definition. Why would he even WANT a body, given his glorified resurrection from death? And also, isn’t his body recreated every second of the day in the Eucharist?
Regarding Mary, I thought: okay, I’ll accept the unlikelihood of the Assumption. What about this “body in heaven” business, though? Does Mary have a body when all the other saints are glorified spirits? Why would she persist with a body with all its limitations, when spirithood is clearly the preferred state?
And, if they are bodies in Heaven: are Mary and Jesus still dressed in the clothes in which they ascended? Are they the same age? Does Jesus still have his scars?
What’s the point of a body in heaven?
When the end comes and this corruption puts on incorruption, what will happen to Jesus and Mary if they are still stuck with bodies when everyone else is becoming glorified spirits?

Sorry for raving on, but it seems a little far-fetched. Was my colleague right or wrong?

 

[Jimdandy]

Jesus shows us the Way to eternal life and gives us a glimpse of how are bodies will be then. Jesus in His glorified Body is not bound by the natural world-He can appear as any age, in any condition-He often appears with His wounds visible. He ate and drank with His apostles-probably to show them He was not a ghost.
Our Mother, Mary also has this ability-she often appears as being a young woman, and usually displays the racial features of those she appears to. Just another mystery to contemplate-

They are united Spirits who can present themselves to us in their glorified bodies-wearing clothes only makes sense .

 

[AnneElliot]

Hi, all.
I work in a Catholic high school, and was raised as a good but ignorant Catholic. So, although I should know about some of what follows, I was never really taught much about it.
A colleague (an ex-nun) said, yesterday: “There are only two people in Heaven with bodies, and they are Jesus and Mary.”

Long story short, your colleague is correct. Jesus and Mary are the only two persons in Heaven with human bodies.

So: Catholic dogma has it that Jesus ascended to Heaven, and this was witnessed by the apostles, right? (This is clearly told in scripture.) Or, at least, they saw him ascend to a certain point, at which, presumably, he became too small for them to see… (using ordinary logic).

Yes… Jesus ascended into Heaven. I’m not sure the point of your other rambling.

QUESTIONS: What happened then?

What happened when Jesus ascended into Heaven? … are you serious?

At what point did Jesus change into spirit?

Never. Jesus’ soul and body were separated at His death on the Cross (wherein He went and preached “to the spirits in prison” (i.e., Limbo of the Fathers) and at the Resurrection His body and soul were reunited.

Does he exist yet as a spirit in Heaven, awaiting his triumphant return?

I can’t even figure out what you’re asking here… He in Heaven, yet waiting His return? Jesus is one person… why would He be awaiting His own return?

Or does he have a physical body in a spiritual realm?

Jesus has a body-- HIS Body-- in Heaven. Yes, this was the first premise.

And what about Mary, the scriptural basis of whose ascension is rather sketchy?

Mary did not ascend into Heaven, she was assumed. The difference? The Ascension (of Jesus) was by His own power, Mary was assumed by the power of Christ, and not her own.

There is plenty of Scriptural basis for it, you just have to know where to look.

Did she float to the sky and then become spirit at some point, or is she also in heaven with a physical body?

You have quite an imagination. But again, yes, Mary has a body–her body-- in Heaven.

After listening to my colleague, I thought: Why would Jesus have a physical body, when he is God, and God is incorporeal–spirit–almost by definition.

Yes, God is a spirit, but (this is the heart of the Incarnation)-- God became man (in Jesus) for our sake. Jesus, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, has a body. His body was glorified at the resurrection and He ascended into Heaven (glorified/resurrected body and all).

Why would he even WANT a body, given his glorified resurrection from death?

What do you think the Resurrection was!?!

And also, isn’t his body recreated every second of the day in the Eucharist?

No. His Body is not recreated in the Eucharist, His Body is made present in the Eucharist.

Regarding Mary, I thought: okay, I’ll accept the unlikelihood of the Assumption.

Good Catholic.

What about this “body in heaven” business, though?

I think you need to clarify what you think “resurrection” is/means…

Does Mary have a body when all the other saints are glorified spirits?

Yes, Mary has a glorified body by virtue of the Assumption. The other saints in Heaven are spirits, but are awaiting their glorified bodies at the resurrection at the end of time.

Why would she persist with a body with all its limitations, when spirithood is clearly the preferred state?

God created us body AND soul. “Spirithood” is not the preferred state for human beings. We would be incomplete without our bodies. Also, you should do some research on glorified bodies. Our bodies will be changed at the resurrection (and not quite so limited).

And, if they are bodies in Heaven: are Mary and Jesus still dressed in the clothes in which they ascended?

What does it matter?

Are they the same age?

There are various theological opinions on the matter of “age” in Heaven. If you are really interested, I can point you to a few sources.

Does Jesus still have his scars?

Yes, because in them He is glorified. They are the marks of our Salvation.

What’s the point of a body in heaven?

Because we are human beings. God created us body AND soul, our body is a part of who we are.

When the end comes and this corruption puts on incorruption, what will happen to Jesus and Mary if they are still stuck with bodies when everyone else is becoming glorified spirits?

Jesus and Mary are the first fruits of what will happen to everyone else at the end of time. They are not, and will never be “stuck” with bodies. I really recommend that you read up on the nature of the resurrection at the end of time. Everyone else is NOT becoming glorified spirits-- their heavenly souls ARE being reunited with their resurrected and GLORIFIED BODIES. THAT is what will happen at the end of time.

Sorry for raving on, but it seems a little far-fetched. Was my colleague right or wrong?

She was right. And probably not so far-fetched for a God who changes bread and wine into His Body and Blood…

 

[BernadetteM]

In Luke 9:28-36 at Christ’s Transfiguration Peter, John and James saw Moses and Elijah. They apparently had bodies. After a cloud came down Moses and Elijah were gone and only Jesus was still there.

I would assume that both Moses and Elijah were in Heaven with bodies.

In Revelations it speaks of a great crowd of withnesses praying for us. Are these not saints and do not they also have glorified bodies?

I won’t go into detail but a young child I know of dearly saw her grandfather and the BVM and her grandfather was whole, he had physical disabilities that were visible to the eye. It was not a dream she had. Her grandfather was completely healed and perfect. I truely believe this to be true. The child was very young and knew nothing of the BVM and didn’t know that it was Heaven, but saw both persons and described them very clearly.

Her grandmother who was not Catholic and didn’t believe in the Communion of Saints, cried when she described her grandfather as it was a perfect description of how he looked and what he wore daily when he was healthy and before the child knew him.

How can we explain Luke’s version of Moses and Elijah appearing with our Lord?

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[CristusRex]

Long story short, your colleague is correct. Jesus and Mary are the only two persons in Heaven with human bodies.

As far as I know, there are 4 persons in Heaven with human bodies: Jesus, Mary, Enoch and Eljiah.

 

[hansard]

Okay, so it’s “glorified bodies” in heaven, which can’t be anything like “bodies” as we understand them here on earth. Got that.
Enoch and Elijah: yes, it’s easy to forget about that little detail. Both of them were whisked away in the Old Testament. That’s two more bodies in heaven.
I wonder if there could be others whom God spared the indignity or pain of death? I mean, it might not be revealed in scripture, but it must be possible.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Good answer, AnnElliot. I have nothing to add. You really nailed it!

One point, regarding Enoch and Elijah, while they were translated from the earth, they are not yet in their glorified bodies. Where they are at this moment, I don’t think the Church says. To say they are in heaven is as good a theologoumenon as any–pending further information.

They are the two witnesses who are killed by Antichrist.

 

[AnneElliot]

As far as I know, there are 4 persons in Heaven with human bodies: Jesus, Mary, Enoch and Eljiah.

I suppose one could assume such about Enoch and Elijah, but that has not been explicitly revealed (especially since Heaven was not “open” in the OT, we can say that they did not have glorified bodies before Jesus or Mary). But I suppose it would be a fair theological opinion to hold.

 

[AnneElliot]

Okay, so it’s “glorified bodies” in heaven, which can’t be anything like “bodies” as we understand them here on earth. Got that.

Well, it’s still YOUR body. The resurrection will not unite your soul with another body. It will be the body you possess this very instant, glorified by the grace of God.

newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm is an article on the resurrection of the body (relatively short, easy to read). Scroll to the section on “characteristics of the risen body” for more specifics on glorified bodies. And St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa responds to a few questions about the nature of risen bodies (I’m pretty sure it’s in the supplement to the Third Part (i.e., the part St. Thomas never finished).

Enoch and Elijah: yes, it’s easy to forget about that little detail. Both of them were whisked away in the Old Testament. That’s two more bodies in heaven.

That would be a fair theological opinion, but is not a doctrine of faith. Heaven was not open until Christ opened its gates.

I wonder if there could be others whom God spared the indignity or pain of death? I mean, it might not be revealed in scripture, but it must be possible.

Possible? Yes. Possible to go unmentioned/unnoticed? No.

 

[hansard]

AnneElliot said the following things:

"Well, it’s still YOUR body"
Yes, but it cannot be the body I have now. How can it be? The body I have now is flesh and blood. Are you suggesting that my body will be the same in heaven? Is there scriptural evidence of this? (I’m not being argumentative here, but please give chapter and verse)
(By the way, Aquinas is NOT scripture. All of his arguments are open to debate.)

**Possible? Yes. Possible to go unmentioned/unnoticed? No. **
Why not? There are plenty of things not mentioned in scripture.

There are various theological opinions on the matter of “age” in Heaven.
I don’t care about theological opinions. I care about scripture.

Mary was assumed by the power of Christ, and not her own.
The “Assumption” of Mary refers to the assumption that she was taken, body and soul, into Heaven.
In other words, “assumed” is an adjective to describe the state of Mary’s existence:
We assume that a certain event took place.
The transitive verb is “assume”.

Jesus is one person… why would He be awaiting His own return?
No, he was awaiting the moment of his return to earth. You know: the end, when he returns to establish his kingdom on earth (as mentioned in scripture). Can it be that hard to understand?

What do you think the Resurrection was!?!
Your inability to use punctuation is alarming.
That said, I think the resurrection was Jesus coming back to life, having recently been killed. After that, he had his earthly body for a short time, but gave it up when he ascended. Poof! Gone!

His Body is not recreated in the Eucharist, His Body is made present in the Eucharist.
Semantics. Does it matter that much to you? I’ll happily surrender the field on this.

Good Catholic
Patronising git.

Yes, because in them (his scars) He (Jesus) is glorified. They are the marks of our Salvation.
Platitudes and guesswork.

Thanks for the reply, AnneElliot

 

[allhers]

hansard

Since you don’t like the answers you are getting, even though they are correct, look them up in the Cathechism of the Catholic Church instead.

Here is the link on the Vatican web site:
Cathechism of the Catholic Church
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The footnotes at the bottom of each page give the verses in the Bible that they pertain to.

 

[hansard]

Thanks, allhers.
Declaring another poster correct makes them correct. We all know that.

For me, the Catholic Catechism is of occasional use; the Bible is all.

I tried to answer some of the concerns of a respondent who (I thought) sought to render my thoughts invalid. It is NOTHING compared to some of the vitriolic rubbish I see on this forum almost every day.
Peace, AnneElliot.

Look, if I were a real problem around here (which I don’t think is the case), I would expect to be booted. Sometimes I have a colloquial way of addressing scriptural matters,and sometimes it comes across as disrespectful or even blasphemous. It is never intended that way.

I just like to think about my faith and use my powers of reason (such as they are) to try and work out the big concerns.

Thanks.

 

[AnneElliot]

I apologize if you thought my reply was snippy and/or offensive. It was not meant to be such.

Yes, but it cannot be the body I have now.

Yes it can.

How can it be?

God is omnipotent.

The body I have now is flesh and blood. Are you suggesting that my body will be the same in heaven?

No, I already addressed this. Our bodies are changed at the resurrection (aside from resurrecting), they are glorified by the grace of God.

Council of Toledo XI, 675
Thus, according to the model of our Head, we profess that there is a true bodily resurrection of all the dead… we shall rise in this very body in which we now live and are and move. (Denzinger 287)
Lateran Council IV, 1215
… He (Christ) will come at the end of the world; he will judge the living and the dead; and he will reward all, both the lost and elect, according to their works. And all these will rise** with their own bodies which they now have** so that they may receive according to their works, whether good or bad; the wicked, a perpetual punishment with the devil; the good, eternal glory with Christ. (Denzinger 429)

Is there scriptural evidence of this? (I’m not being argumentative here, but please give chapter and verse)

Yes, of course there is Scriptural evidence.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 51-54 “. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body.
…
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery.We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”

(By the way, Aquinas is NOT scripture. All of his arguments are open to debate.)

I agree, but St. Thomas explains the doctrine rather nicely and does include Scripture in his demonstrations.

Why not? There are plenty of things not mentioned in scripture.

I was not limiting myself to the Scriptures. Christian Tradition would’ve surely made mention of that sort of supernatural occurrence.

I don’t care about theological opinions. I care about scripture.

Okay then. God has not revealed in the Scriptures what age everyone will appear in Heaven.

The “Assumption” of Mary refers to the assumption that she was taken, body and soul, into Heaven.
In other words, “assumed” is an adjective to describe the state of Mary’s existence:
We assume that a certain event took place.
The transitive verb is “assume”.

The Assumption of Mary is not an assumption, but a dogma of the Catholic faith.

Words can have more than one meaning. “Assume” does not always mean “take for granted”. For example, in the Assumption of Mary, Mary’s being assumed into Heaven means that Mary was taken into Heaven by the grace and power of God. It is a theological definition (and dogma), not something from Webster’s.

No, he was awaiting the moment of his return to earth. You know: the end, when he returns to establish his kingdom on earth (as mentioned in scripture). Can it be that hard to understand?

Your question was not clear the first time around. You asked if Jesus was a spirit in Heaven, awaiting His return. But now you seem to be answering your own question… so now I’m even more confused as to what you were asking in the first place.

Your inability to use punctuation is alarming.

I was attempting to convey surprise/confusion.

That said, I think the resurrection was Jesus coming back to life, having recently been killed.

Okay, what does “coming back to life” entail? Can you be more specific about what you mean?

After that, he had his earthly body for a short time, but gave it up when he ascended. Poof! Gone!

What do you mean “gave it up”? Why would Jesus give up His body to ascend into Heaven?

Semantics. Does it matter that much to you? I’ll happily surrender the field on this.

It does matter because it affects how we think about the Eucharist. Jesus’ Body is not gone. It is in Heaven with Him, there is no need to “recreate” it, only to make it present.

Patronising git.

Wow… unnecessary. You were claiming to be Catholic and then disparaging a dogma of the faith…

Yes, because in them (his scars) He (Jesus) is glorified. They are the marks of our Salvation.
Platitudes and guesswork.

Thanks for the reply, AnneElliot

Uhh, you’re welcome? I think… (I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic)

 

[hansard]

Okay, AnneElliot, we are at least making some ground towards understanding each other. I regret using the term “patronising git” and I apologise for it.
It’s just that some posters around here go for the jugular every time, and I mistakenly took you for one of those.
The idea of spirits, angels, souls, glorified bodies and deities is an abiding interest of mine, especially in regard to the physical world.

 

[allhers]

Thanks, allhers.
Declaring another poster correct makes them correct. We all know that.

For me, the Catholic Catechism is of occasional use; the Bible is all…

I just like to think about my faith and use my powers of reason (such as they are) to try and work out the big concerns.

Thanks.

My point was to give you the Cathechism and the parts of the Bible that it refers to in
speaking about the Resurrection, which I believe you wanted to know about.

You said in your first post that you weren’t taught much about it so I was pointing you to
the official teaching about it. We are not a Bible only Church, however, the Bible is
clearly referenced in the article here. Below are just some of the parts of the Bible that
the footnotes on this one page about the Resurrection refer to.

Anne was giving you correct answers, I am giving you where you can find a lot of what she
is telling you, she herself is also giving you many good links.

From the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, which every good Catholic ought to have.

I. Christ’s Resurrection and Ours

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2H.HTM

2 Macc 7:9

2 Macc 7:14; 7:29

Dan 12:1-13

Mk 12:24

Acts 23:6

Mk 12:27

Jn 11:25

Jn 5:24-25; 6:40, 54

Mk 5:21-42

Lk 7:11-17

Jn 11

Mt 12:39

Mk 10:34

Jn 2:19-22

Acts 1:22; 10:41; 4:33

Acts 17:32

12Cor 15:12-13

Jn 5:29

Dan 12:2

Lk 24:39

Phil 3:21

2 Cor 15:44

1 Cor 15:35-37, 42, 52, 53

Jn 6: 39-40, 44, 54 11:24

1 Thess 4:16

Col 2:12; 3:1

Col 3:3

Phil 3:20

Eph 2:6

Col 3:4

1 Cor 6:13-15, 19-20.

 

[Monica4316]

both Jesus and Mary have glorified bodies in Heaven. They are not limited by time and space…

the reason Jesus has a body is because He still has HIs human nature (and always will. Jesus (unlike the Father) is 100% God and 100% Man.

the reason Mary has a body in Heaven is because God did not want her body to decay in the earth, since she is sinless (Immaculate Conception) and since she gave Jesus His human nature, and is His Mother.

hope that helps…

 

[fulbert4605]

I suppose one could assume such about Enoch and Elijah, but that has not been explicitly revealed (especially since Heaven was not “open” in the OT, we can say that they did not have glorified bodies before Jesus or Mary). But I suppose it would be a fair theological opinion to hold.

Enoch and Elijah never went through an earthly death. So far as i know, it’s impossible to make it to Heaven without personal judgment. It’s not possible to have personal judgment before your bodily death.

Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich (whose private revelations are approved by the Church but no one is required to believe in them) relates that Elijah is currently residing in a place near Heaven but not in it. The chariot that he rode in when he left earth is there with him. He is going through a large book of Catholic doctrines checking if other books match the information in this right and just large book. He is waiting to return to earth (where he will get killed by the Anti-Christ as mentioned in an earlier post by bpbasilphx). He mentions people on earth keep retarding his process of returning. Anne Catherine asks if he ever gets tired or frustrated because of this. Then Elijah smiles and says with God there is no time. So he is not in Heaven but he is in a rather happy state.

i do not recall Anne Catherine saying where Enoch is until his return to earth.

BernadetteM says

In Luke 9:28-36 at Christ’s Transfiguration Peter, John and James saw Moses and Elijah. They apparently had bodies. After a cloud came down Moses and Elijah were gone and only Jesus was still there.

It is probably the appearance of a body, 2 arms, 2 legs, etc. but it is actually spirit in substance. They probably take on the appearance of the bodies they had on earth since that is a form we humans can understand.

 

[SANxJONERO]

I remember my Grandma talking about different ways of living the after life & I think she was trying to explain this to me about Mary. Got confused, but seemed like she was trying to say I could go to heaven with my body (even tho she liked to say I was going to hell when I die). LOL

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Does anyone know if Melchizadek who was a priest forever without father or mother if he ever died?

Is Melchizadek just like the rest of us–he didn’t have a father or mother–he seems to me to be the most mysterious person in the whole bible.

 

[James924]

Does anyone know if Melchizadek who was a priest forever without father or mother if he ever died?

Is Melchizadek just like the rest of us–he didn’t have a father or mother–he seems to me to be the most mysterious person in the whole bible.

Jeff Cavins and other Biblical Scholars seem to think there is a chance that Melchizadek was Shem (Noah’s son), from which we get the term Semite {Shem-ite}.

The idea, if I remember correctly, is this:
There is a continuous Jewish bloodline, and a line of blessings also has to be accounted for. Abraham had the blessing and gave it to his son Isaac who gave it to Jacob.

The question is, i think, where did Abraham get the blessing? Scholars have verified that chronologically Shem would have been alive still. Not much is said about Abraham’s visit with Melchizadek, but it is apparently thought by some that Melchizadek was the good semite, the favoured son of Noah, Shem.

Sorry I can’t provide to much explaination here because it was a while back that I listened to this in Jeff Cavins’ Bible Timeline study. Perhaps a google search on “Shem Melchizadek connection” would prove fruitful?

@Hansard, from the way you are talking about scripture in some of your replies, it seems you ascribe to the protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Do you know what the difference is between the Catholic (2,000 year old) and Protestant (400 year old) reliance on scripture? Not everything is explicitly explained in scripture. You might as well get snippy with us about scripture not including a definition of Trinity or even the word Trinity itself…

Mary, of course, has a body in heaven, as John described it in his Apocalypse.