Jesus and Mary Immortal

[RyanL]

My brother in Christ,
You are right. I have become frustrated in our dialog by (hopefully) my inability to properly understand what you are trying to communicate, nor properly understand the charitable nature in which you’re communicating. I will exercise more patience, and I will pray for a humble heart.

tuopaolo:

That’s not what I am talking about. There are differing beliefs (though one is clearly more common) about whether or not Mary died. However there are no differing beliefs as to whether the fact of whether or not Mary died – whatever it may be – is based on directly or indirectly on divine revelation.
…
Let me try to illustrate the difference for you. Nestorians and orthodox Catholics disagreed with each other as to whether Christ was one divine person or two persons. But they were in full agreement with each other that whichever position is true it is a position that is based on divine revelation.

Just think about it. If theologians are making theological arguments for and against Mary dying then OBVIOUSLY those arguments are based on divine revelation.

Ok. I understand how the Nestorian example holds up to divine revelation - there could be no other way to determine this than it being “revealed”. Mary’s death, however, is a different situation alltogether. Tomorrow we could unearth a first hand, Dead Sea scrolls style documentary account of her funeral. One is a nature, which can only be revealed, the other is factual event, which can be attested to either in historical accounts or in successory teachings. Could you please explain to me how else to understand “divine revelation” in reference to Mary’s death?

Thank you for your patience on this,
RyanL

 

[tuopaolo]

RyanL:

I will exercise more patience, and I will pray for a humble heart.

Pray for me also if you would.

Ok. I understand how the Nestorian example holds up to divine revelation - there could be no other way to determine this than it being “revealed”. Mary’s death, however, is a different situation alltogether. Tomorrow we could unearth a first hand, Dead Sea scrolls style documentary account of her funeral.
One is a nature, which can only be revealed, the other is factual event, which can be attested to either in historical accounts or in successory teachings. Could you please explain to me how else to understand “divine revelation” in reference to Mary’s death?

There can potentially be more than one way to know something though. For example it is a datum of revelation that Mary is the mother of Jesus. But this fact could also be very well attested to by some secular historical document. That doesn’t take away from the fact that it remains a datum of revelation.

Thank you for your patience on this,

You’re welcome but thank me when I actually do something worthy of thanks I’m afraid I do not really excel in the virtue of patience. You probably just caught me in a good mood

 

[SherryLynn9]

MamaGeek:

We believe that when God created Adam and Eve they were meant to live forever, and that through original sin, the human state was changed forever, allowing death and suffering.

Jesus and Mary were both conceived without sin as the new Adam and the new Eve. It occurred to me that they must be immortal, as the first man and woman before the Fall. This idea seems to work well with the Assumption, since bodily raising Mary into Heaven was the only way for her to leave the earth. Likewise for the Ascension, although Jesus’ divinity could preempt His bodily restrictions after the Resurrection.

Adam and Eve “would” have lived forever “if” they had eaten from the “Tree of Life.” That’s why they were cast out of Eden, a Cheribum with a flaming sword stood at the entrance guarding it. God did not want them to live forever in a sinful state.

Gen.3 22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings* have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[Matt16_18]

gelsbern:

Guess it’s one more thing I will have to disagree with Rome on. Thank God, it’s not relevant to salvation.

You can disagree if you like, but scriptures explicitly teach that it was Adam’s sin that brought death into the world. Romans 5:12 - Therefore as sin came into the world through one man **and death through sin ** …

No sin, no death.

The fact that sin brings death is certainly relevant to salvation!

 

[gelsbern]

Matt16_18:

You can disagree if you like, but scriptures explicitly teach that it was Adam’s sin that brought death into the world. Romans 5:12 - Therefore as sin came into the world through one man **and death through sin ** …

No sin, no death.

The fact that sin brings death is certainly relevant to salvation!

Is that bodily death, or the death of our communion with God if we we pass away in a state of sin?

Obviously, John 3:16 doesn’t mean our bodies will live forever if we believe in Jesus, so if that eternal life is not talking about the body, why would the death mentioned in Romans be referring to the body?

Also you have to look in context of the verse you quote.

Romans 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If verse 12 is talking about imortality of the body, then verse 21 must also be too. But we know that our bodies do not live forever, therefore it must be talking about a different kind of death and life.

 

[Matt16_18]

SherryLynn9:

God did not want them to live forever in a sinful state.

I agree. God did not allow Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of life when they were no longer in a state of grace. Just as Catholics are not allowed to eat the Bread of Life when they are not in a state of grace.

If Adam and Eve had eaten of the tree of life while they were in a state of grace, they would not have received the preternatural gift of bodily immortality (because they already had that gift) - what they would have received is more life, both greater spiritual life and even more glorious sanctified bodies. Adam and Eve would have become partakers of the divine nature of God by eating the fruit of the tree of life. (The fruit of the tree of life is a metaphor for the Bread of Life).

The Church teaches that Adam and Eve were destined by God to achieve an even greater degree of glory than they possessed in the state of original justice. Adam and Eve were predestined to become fully divinized children of God (aka theosis). **Catechism of the Catholic Church

Man’s first sin

398** In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

 

[Matt16_18]

gelsbern:

Is that bodily death, or the death of our communion with God if we we pass away in a state of sin?

Obviously, John 3:16 doesn’t mean our bodies will live forever if we believe in Jesus, so if that eternal life is not talking about the body, why would the death mentioned in Romans be referring to the body?

Also you have to look in context of the verse you quote. Romans 5:21

Yes, we should look at the verse in context, and the context of that quote is Paul’s teaching in Romans, not John’s teaching in his Gospel. Paul teaches that physical death entered into creation because of the Adam’s disobedience. That is why Paul also teaches in Romans that all of creation (plants, animals, etc.) is “groaning in travail” as it waits to be freed from its bondage to decay. Romans 8:21-22.

The original sin of Adam brought not only physical death upon all creation, it also brought about the loss of sanctifying grace in Adam’s soul and in the souls of all his progeny (the children of the wrath).

Obviously, John 3:16 doesn’t mean our bodies will live forever if we believe in Jesus, so if that eternal life is not talking about the body …

.

Why is that obvious to you? John teaches that eternal life is Jesus Christ. Those who possess eternal life are destined to be resurrected with glorified immortal physical bodies.
I believe in the resurrection of the body.

• Nicene Creed

 

[gelsbern]

Matt16_18:

Yes, we should look at the verse in context, and the context of that quote is Paul’s teaching in Romans, not John’s teaching in his Gospel. Paul teaches that physical death entered into creation because of the Adam’s disobedience. That is why Paul also teaches in Romans that all of creation (plants, animals, etc.) is “groaning in travail” as it waits to be freed from its bondage to decay. Romans 8:21-22.

The original sin of Adam brought not only physical death upon all creation, it also brought about the loss of sanctifying grace in Adam’s soul and in the souls of all his progeny (the children of the wrath).

.

Why is that obvious to you? John teaches that eternal life is Jesus Christ. Those who possess eternal life are destined to be resurrected with glorified immortal physical bodies.
I believe in the resurrection of the body.

• Nicene Creed

Here again we need context. The line you quote from the nicene creed needs to be looked into using the Catechism of the Catholic Church which will tell you that the resurrection of the body will happen for the righteous and the wicked.

CCC 1038

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So since the resurrection of the dead isn’t restricted to only the righteous then the line in the nicene creed is not making a reference to eternal bodily life, as we know that the wages of sin is death.

Now back to Romans 5. We’ll skip John for a moment. In Romans 5 near the end it says that the gift of salvation is eternal life. Again, the body dies at some point, so that eternal life isn’t talking about about the body, so if the last passage isn’t talking about the body, the passage you orignally posted isn’t talking about the body either.

I am well aware of the Roman Catholic tradition that Adam and Eve were created to never die, but that is not a binding belief, and there is hardly any support, from scripture, and from the creeds. It is one of those beliefs, that would be in the same class as the question of what happens to unbaptized babies who die.

 

[Matt16_18]

gelsbern:

Now back to Romans 5. We’ll skip John for a moment. In Romans 5 near the end it says that the gift of salvation is eternal life. Again, the body dies at some point, so that eternal life isn’t talking about about the body, so if the last passage isn’t talking about the body, the passage you orignally posted isn’t talking about the body either.

I would have to be insane to argue that Catholics believe that real Christians don’t have to die a physical death. You are creating a straw man, and attacking something that I never said. What I am saying is that a faithful Catholic has to believe that death came into the physical creation because of Adam’s sin. Which is exactly what Paul teaches in Romans 5.

I am well aware of the Roman Catholic tradition that Adam and Eve were created to never die, but that is not a binding belief, and there is hardly any support, from scripture, and from the creeds. It is one of those beliefs, that would be in the same class as the question of what happens to unbaptized babies who die.

For a faithful Catholic, it is a binding belief that death entered into the physical creation because of Adam’s sin. God is the author of life, not death. God is light, and in God there is no darkness at all. It is blasphemy to assert that God is the cause of death being in creation.

If you want to believe that Adam and Eve never lived in a Paradise that was free from all disease, decay and death, that is your prerogative. But you can’t be a Catholic and believe that, because you can’t be a Catholic and believe that God is the author of death.

Death is the enemy of God, and death came into the physical creation because of Adam’s sin. God is going to destroy his enemy, Death, in the lake of fire.For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor. 15:25-26

And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev. 20:13-14