Jesus as the Begotten Son - a question

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uglygal

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I know that Jesus is the Word of God - His Logos - that became incarnate in the fullness of time. But this is my question, did Jesus become the “begotten Son” when He became incarnated and became human? In other words, did the eternal word of God that is in itself divine because it is God’s Word, become the Son in the incarnation? or was the Word the Son of God before the incarnation?

And how is the word “Son” to be understood about Jesus. I know it’s not to be understood as a son I would give birth to because that would mean the Word of God was created and Christians believe Jesus was uncreated but proceeds from God as His Word.

And is Jesus less than God the Father. I know Jesus is Divine as God’s word is Divine, but isn’t Jesus less than the Father - In hierarchy because the Word and Holy Spirit of God proceed from the Father and have their origin and end in the Father, whilst God the Father has no origin and end and proceeds from no-one.

Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks 🙂
 
I know that Jesus is the Word of God - His Logos - that became incarnate in the fullness of time. But this is my question, did Jesus become the “begotten Son” when He became incarnated and became human?

The Word’s being “begotten of the Father before all ages” has nothing whatever to do with His Incarnation in time in the womb of the Virgin.

He was the “only begotten Son” even before that.
 
uglygal said:
And is Jesus less than God the Father?
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No, that’s Arianism, and was condemned at the First Council of Nicea in the 300’s. Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. They do, however, have different roles in salvation, although each One’s role is interlinked to the Other’s (i.e., Christ’s redemptive role is also shared somewhat by the other co-equal hypostases of the Trinity of God, although it was His duty alone to die on the Cross.)
I know Jesus is Divine as God’s word is Divine, but isn’t Jesus less than the Father - In hierarchy because the Word and Holy Spirit of God proceed from the Father and have their origin and end in the Father, whilst God the Father has no origin and end and proceeds from no-one.
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Yes, in “heirarchy” or “role”, Jesus, you could say, is “subject” to the Father, but they are completely co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existent.
 
uglygal said:
I know that Jesus is the Word of God - His Logos - that became incarnate in the fullness of time. But this is my question, did Jesus become the “begotten Son” when He became incarnated and became human? In other words, did the eternal word of God that is in itself divine because it is God’s Word, become the Son in the incarnation? or was the Word the Son of God before the incarnation?

And how is the word “Son” to be understood about Jesus. I know it’s not to be understood as a son I would give birth to because that would mean the Word of God was created and Christians believe Jesus was uncreated but proceeds from God as His Word.

And is Jesus less than God the Father. I know Jesus is Divine as God’s word is Divine, but isn’t Jesus less than the Father - In hierarchy because the Word and Holy Spirit of God proceed from the Father and have their origin and end in the Father, whilst God the Father has no origin and end and proceeds from no-one.

Any clarification would be appreciated. Thanks 🙂
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In St. John Ch 1. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God…v. 14… …and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us…

Jesus’ carnal nature is from His mother. His spirit is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is of the Father Who always was since time is of no concept with God then the “…Word was with God…”

Far be it for me to explain the Holy Trinity…it is a mystery that we will have full knowledge of when we enter Eternal Life.

Jesus as man said, “…all power of Heaven and earth has been given to Me…” He also said, “…I am in the Father and the Father is in Me…when you see Me; you see the Father…”

No one man (except the PERFECT MAN) can be a sufficient sacrifice to redeem the entire world, past, present and future. Jesus is the conduit that allows us to approach the Father for we would never be able to see Him Face-to-face except through His Son.

The more I try to describe; the more shakey I become since the mystery is overwhelming.

Anyway yours is a very provocative post. Thank you.
 
Metaron said:
No, that’s Arianism, and was condemned at the First Council of Nicea in the 300’s. Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father. They do, however, have different roles in salvation, although each One’s role is interlinked to the Other’s (i.e., Christ’s redemptive role is also shared somewhat by the other co-equal hypostases of the Trinity of God, although it was His duty alone to die on the Cross.)

Yes, in “heirarchy” or “role”, Jesus, you could say, is “subject” to the Father, but they are completely co-eternal, co-equal, and co-existent.
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Yes that’s what I asked, is Jesus lesser in hierarchy because He is the Word of God - relational back to God, proceeds from the Father whilst the Father does not proceed from anything. But Jesus as ‘begotten’ doesn’t that make Him lesser because the Father is not begotten nor does he proceed from anything - equal in that God’s word is divine, but yet not equal? I don;t know if my question makes sense
 
uglygal said:
Yes that’s what I asked, is Jesus lesser in hierarchy because He is the Word of God - relational back to God, proceeds from the Father whilst the Father does not proceed from anything. But Jesus as ‘begotten’ doesn’t that make Him lesser because the Father is not begotten nor does he proceed from anything - equal in that God’s word is divine, but yet not equal? I don;t know if my question makes sense
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In the Creed, we attest that, “…Jesus is One in Being with the Father…”
 
Does that mean He is divine like the Father because he proceeds from the Father? or does it mean something more?
 
The Holy Trinity

Father, Son, Holy Spirit

They are all God, yet three distinct persons.

Father = God

Son = God

Holy Spirit = God

They are all equally God.

The Cathecism does a good job of explaining what is, at the core, a mystery.
 
I have read the catechism, that’s why these questions popped up for me. It says in the catechism -

*", the Church recognizes the Father as “the source and origin of the whole divinity”.72 *

The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

*They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 *

The Father is greater than the Son and Holy Spirit in hierarchy because He is the origin - wheras the Son is the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit of God.

*Because it does not divide the divine unity, t**he real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships *which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.”

Yet this is where I get confused …
*
The divine persons **do not share the one divinity *among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire

How can Jesus not share the divinity of the Father when He is begotten of the Father? and how does the Holy Spirit not share as he proceeds from the Father?

This gives me the impression of 3 gods in an alliance, because how can a God who does not share the divinity of another, be begotten of God as a seperate god? I hope I’m not confusing and I hope someone can understand what I’m asking and give me an answer.

Thanks.
 
I think being divine (God) means having a infinite capacity for complete sefl-giving. Only the three eternal persons have this capaciy and thus together they become the God who is love itself.

Since ‘complete’ self giving to the other does not divide but unites. The three persons are not three Gods but one God. They are merged into one another. Each one is in the other as Jesus said. So they do share the one divinity.

Use ‘complete sefl-giving to the other’ as key word here. This is how I make sens of many being one.

And also look at Jesus who is the image of the Father. He dies for his beloved. He prays that he be one with us. We are in Christ only when we die in him as he died for us.

It is simply a mystery of love. When the love between many people is recognized as authentic. Those people are not longer considered as many ‘men’ in the specific situation, but as one man. I think humanity celebrated the trinity without knowing it many times. Think of how many times you have heard of songs calling people to rise as one man. Most revolutionary songs knows this concept.

So it is simply the basis is that Love does not divides. Three Gods implies divisions, some misunderstandings, it is as if the three divine persons agree on some cases but can’t agree on others. So they don’t always stand up as one God. But that’s exactly the point. They always stand up as one God. It is built in their being to stand up as one God. This unity is so infinitely strong that it become a blasphemy to see them as three Gods.

You can tell Jesus’ feeling about how God is displeased about humans unable to show up before his face as one Man. Jesus long prayer about unity is very touching in this aspect. God created humanity as one Man even though they were many individual (male and female and a blessing to multiply), he created them as one Man.

1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

It was sin that divided us.
 
uglygal said:
How can Jesus not share the divinity of the Father when He is begotten of the Father? and how does the Holy Spirit not share as he proceeds from the Father?
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Learning from how God designed us we who are made in his image, you can see that we can only share with ‘others’. Yet those others are not aliens. They are may be our childreen or uncles or distant relatives. We are all related to each other in humanity because we come from common ancestor.
This gives me the impression of 3 gods in an alliance, because how can a God who does not share the divinity of another, be begotten of God as a seperate god? I hope I’m not confusing and I hope someone can understand what I’m asking and give me an answer.
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Thanks.
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The divinity is one reality like humanity. As persons, they are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three persons. So even though we are many persons, if our hearts/wills are not divided we can still say that we are one man. One person can have the fullness of humanity even though we know they are many individual humans and yet one humanity.

It is the same thing for the divinity. There is not many divinity, but one divinity which is what we call one God. Humanity is structured the same way as divinity. Only divinity is the Creator and humanity is the Creature.

Humanity was designed that way because God is that way, him who created humanity in his image.

But humanity sinned and became divided. But in the Church humanity will be restored into one by the power of divine love that Jesus teaches us.

If we do his will, the Father will love us, and him and the Father will come and make their dwelling in us.

Here is some interesting meditations on Divine Will which shows that Oneness means unity of will; one will among many individuals.
 
I think an other reason of the confusion is that we try to put God in time in order to understand the reality of father-son. Because one come first.

But I don’t think this is what Jesus meant. Father points to providing and taking care of, etc. And Son points obeying, serving, etc…

We have to remember that the Son, Jesus, it the Truth and the Life. So can we imagine a time when it was ‘true’ that God was not ‘alive’? No. God lives in eternity in fact that’s why he have only one Son because he can only produce one Word for all eternity and this Word is his Life, the Truth of his own reality. His Image. And it is a separate person.

I guess we can relate to this, because it happens to us that we look at a beloved and say “you are my life”😃 I don’t think we are really that crazy when we say that.
Love is intimately related to eternal life and truth (Jesus). And we are really alive when our relationships are running okay, that is when there is Jesus (Truth) in them.

We see the protective role of the Father in his Justice, he punishes anytthing that goes agains Truth and Life. We see the serving role of the Son in how Truth and Life serve and grorify the Fathe who is the source/provider of everything there is. And the Holy Spirit who teaches us about truth and beauty and give us eternal life making us sons of God if we obey the commandments.
 
St. Patrick was walking down the beach meditating on the Trinity when he came across a child carrying bowls of water from the ocean and pouring them in a small hole. He asked the boy “What are you doing?”

“I am going to pour the whole ocean into this hole.”

The saint smiled and said gently, “But that is not possible.”

The boy responded, “No more can you understand the Trinity” and promptly disappeared.

As humans we have finite minds, and we are unable to understand the infinite mystery which is God.
 
Thanks for the reminder Marsha.
We always have to remind ourselves of our limits as creatures.

But I think our Christian Faith is entire built or supposed to be built on the Trinity. Did you notice how the Cathechism is centered around it specially our proffession of Faith.

When I notice that in the CCC, I realize that a christian life is really a meditation on the Trinity. Not a just intellectual exercise which may turn very quickly into some intellectual pride, but as a model for living.

I think the point of being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is to be marked by the divine life. Our life styles, culture, traditions have to change and be adapted to the civilization of love in the Holy Trinity. That’s what Jesus came to teach us. Him who is the Way. He shows us that our place is a place of the Son. So we have to learn his attitude toward the Father. And Always be holy in order to deserve to constanlty be the temple of the Holy Spirit.

It is by learning by the trinitarian love how to be One though we are many that both an individual person and the whole Church are but one Temple of the Holy Spirit. And this temple is actually the body of Christ. We are members of the body of Chirst. At the end We are in God again as only three distinct persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

It is very significant actually that all the blessings in the Church are done in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Doing the sign of the cross everyday without meditating on the mystery would be to miss out big time.

I think we just have to do it humbly as much as it feel a requirement in order to fulfil to our best the first commandment.

In Christ
 
Thankyou for your responses, they are thought provoking and I think I will need to meditate, pray and think it over. If i get more questions on this issue I’ll raise them later. Thanks everyone 🙂
 
In Genesis, God said, “Let US create man in OUR Image and Likeness…” Check it out…that quote is in the Torah as well.
 
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