Jesus ate lamb so that we could eat hamburgers, or not?

[ahollars]

Let me ask you a question… I have a friend who is a vegan. She’s one of the most irritating, egotistical, self-important people I’ve ever met. Would it be fair for me to characterize ALL vegans this way?

As a meat producer, a talent given by God, I take great offense when I read hateful and ignorant words like what you wrote above. To listen to them, you’d think I have all my cows duct-taped together in filthy conditions, injecting them with things that could hurt you but so what if it makes me a few bucks.

I’m really sick and tired of reading that kind of attitude from people who probably don’t know one end of a cow from the other.

So here is some information for you. I don’t inject growth hormones in my cows. They eat grass - a natural, renewable, organic product - and they have plenty of room to roam. They have all the water they need and are sheltered at night in individual stalls larger than my bedroom. It takes hours of work every single day to keep their environment clean, free of pests, and safe (for them).

When my cows grow, the emphasis on on health. Why? Because if I send off a cow to the processor that shows signs of illness, even suspected illness, I lose every dime I’ve spent on them. So even if I was the evil sort you cast us all as, I couldn’t make any money doing it. No producer does. The emphasis is on health also so that the cow grows proportionally with strong bones that can support a large muscle structure. If not, the cow will only grow so large and again profit is reduced.

After they grow to a certain size, I send them to a finisher. At a finisher, the cows spend their time indoors being fed a specific diet, typically corn feed and hay, sometimes other roughage, that is formulated to grow muscle AND fat in a specific proportion. This maximizes their “meat” as well as gives it the proper fat content for taste. Too lean and it won’t taste good, too fat and it won’t bring as much money from the processor. The floors are cleaned 3 times a day, and it is inspected regularly to ensure compliance with all laws and standards.

I sell my cows to the finisher on a sliding scale price. He in turn sells them to the processor on a sliding scale contract. For example, the processor offers a contract for 20,000 lbs hanging weight with X amount of it being able to meet or exceed USDA Grade A standards. The finisher then buys cows that he believes he can grow to that size in the right proportions. If he fails, if that meat isn’t the correct grade or percentage, he gets paid less, then I get paid less. So it is incumbent upon everyone in the chain to do everything they can to meet that end goal. Nothing short of strong healthy cows gets you there.

What happens is that some finishers try to take short cuts. Just like in every other business, the people who do this are soon identified and no one does business with them. Usually it’s someone who doesn’t know what they are doing, and anyone can spot them a mile away, I know of no facility like those, and would not risk my income with one. Ever.

Sometimes processors have machine failures and end up holding cows in facilities that are too cramped for long-term holding. Naturally this provides an awesome opportunity for some home made video showing how “the industry” is evil and unfair, uncaring about the animals, etc. I’ve seen people put their dog in a cardboard box to take them to the vet when they had no other suitable container. Would it be fair to photograph that and then conclude “all dog owners are cruel. See this dog… see the box? How can anyone expect a dog to live its life in a box?”

Point is, it is not a widespread phenomena. It happens; so do bank robberies. Those don’t indicate an entire system is corrupt.

If you choose not to eat mine, that’s your choice to make, but it is a lie (that would be a sin, remember) to cast all of us into one bin based on the very few, lowest, most vile people in the industry.

Thanks for reading.

I believe you.

 

[royal_archer]

There’s a strong likelihood that Jesus ate lamb at Passover. Jesus, the Lamb of God, the innocent slaughtered for our sins. Jesus eating lamb for the occasion of Passover, I notice, is often used as justification in threads, for us in the 21st century, to eat meat without restraint and with great excess, and not necessarily lamb, hardly ever lamb, and more frequently then just on the occasion of Passover (which to my knowledge Catholics do not celebrate).

I don’t exactly see how our current indulgence of meat, or more specifically over-indulgence, is linked to Jesus eating lamb at Passover.

In the 21st century we are plagued with disease from over-indulgences of meat and other foods, and meat is raised in inhumane conditions not seen in the time of Jesus (factory type production).

If Jesus only ate lamb once a year, how does that equate to us eating it for breakfast, lunch and dinner 7 times a week? Is mass cruelty to animals irrelevant?

Some people seem to trivialize the fact that our intake of meat has reached astronomical proportions, and that our new methods of producing it are irrelevant, but are they? There are a lot of issues tied to meat production, including pollution to the environment from so many billions of animals.

Does each generation have new challenges to contend with, new ethical dilemmas to grapple with? Is it possible that the treatment of food animals and our over-indulgence of “meat” and “food” in general, brings new ethical concerns to 21st century Catholics?

The concept of excess extends beyond flesh vs foliage discussion. The consumption of sugar has also reached “astronomical” levels.

The consumption of organic or free range products sends a stronger signal than not consuming flesh at all. at least with the growing demand for more “ethical” meat gives growers an incentive to change in a marketable way.

 

[royal_archer]

Our lives are drastically different than 2000 years ago, and I think that we should examine all technological advancements/improvements for any ethical dilemmas that they may present in our current age.

The food industry boasts advancements that on the surface may seem
good–ease, convenience, etc., but upon closer examination we may find unhealthy, dangerous food, industrialized animal abuse, misappropriation of resources (crops grown to feed animals instead of going directly to feed people), degradation to the planet’s soil and water, etc., etc.

So, yes, I think that as we advance scientifically, we are presented with ethical challenges and choices that are unique to our period in history. We can not blindly accept all the ease and convenience, without considering the total costs to society, personal health etc.

Our massive use of animal products–a good thing–a bad thing??? Animals raised in confined, unnatural conditions–pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics, E.coli contaminated meat and ground waters, Swine Flu and other diseases that jump from one species to another, heart disease, cancer, other human diseaes related to diet… All things to consider, and quite a few ethical dilemmas there as well.

The perhaps biggest ethical dilemma is how can we allow people to starve, and at the same time have people who eat so much that we now spend money for diet products, and spend massive amounts of money for health care related to diseases associated with over-eating and diet/dietary choices.

I’d hardly consider the vegie farming any better. With the massive amounts of industrial poisons they poor on food to kill off fungus, insects and other living matter, our food supply has been irreversably tainted. Unlike animals, plants are less able to filter these poisons out of their systems.

 

[Marfran]

That certainly is a very odd thing for a Catholic to post. I would think you would find out if it is true before making such a slur.

An odd thing for a Catholic to post??? You accuse me of making a slur? And you are so mean and nasty, why exactly?

I said I wasn’t sure if it was true, that my child had done a report, and that I had heard it mentioned.

After your nasty post I typed it into my browser, and guess what??? Turns out to be true. And one source for an answer comes from none other than Catholic Answers Forum!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=453876#post453876

 

[Indyann]

An odd thing for a Catholic to post??? You accuse me of making a slur? And you are so mean and nasty, why exactly?

I said I wasn’t sure if it was true, that my child had done a report, and that I had heard it mentioned.

After your nasty post I typed it into my browser, and guess what??? Turns out to be true. And one source for an answer comes from none other than Catholic Answers Forum!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=453876#post453876

You obviously did not read the whole thread you linked to.

It is a slur because it sounds like something from a Jack Chick publication.

Now, if you can prove this story, I will retract my post.

You must know that Catholics are not the only one reading these boards.

 

[athansor]

Have you considered the millions of animals killed as collateral damage in the harvesting of grain and veggies?

Yes, of course I have. However, as a meat eater, I also ate grain and veggies. (I don’t know anyone who only eats meat). So, for a plate of meat, veggies and grain, you have the animal killed for the meat, the animals killed as collateral damage for the grain used to feed the meat animal, and the animals killed as collateral damage for the grain and veggies that you eat. Since you have to eat something, it your goal is to minimize the animals killed, then you get twice as much bang for your buck by getting rid of the meat off your plate.

 

[JoeJetson]

Originally Posted by Marfran
One of my kids did a report on when the meat abstinence tradition started in the Church. I recall hearing that one of the reasons it was started was to promote the fish industry. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe, with all these Lenten fish frys, and growing numbers of vegans and vegetarians, the Church should consider re-focusing on the sacrifice part of this tradition.

That certainly is a very odd thing for a Catholic to post. I would think you would find out if it is true before making such a slur.

I had heard that too, about fish on Fridays. I don’t know where I heard it. I don’t think it’s odd at all to learn the history of things. I did a little checking and I’m finding bits and pieces here and there. Does anyone know where this can be answered definitively? I was looking in the Catholic Encyclopedia but after reading and reading through a lot of stuff I could not find an exact answer.

 

[JoeJetson]

I’d hardly consider the vegie farming any better. With the massive amounts of industrial poisons they poor on food to kill off fungus, insects and other living matter, our food supply has been irreversably tainted. Unlike animals, plants are less able to filter these poisons out of their systems.

I’d agree with that. Better to grow your own or eat organic!

 

[JoeJetson]

Ease off the beef, and slow down on the chicken if you can, but the rest is harmless.

What’s wrong with chicken?

 

[severus68]

If we abstain from meat on Fridays in Lent because it is a ***sacrifice ***why do so many Catholics replace that meal of meat with an often superior one of seafood. Where I live Catholics flock in droves to all you can eat fish frys, shrimp & lobster, and other seafood delicacies on Fridays in Lent. And there is usually a lot of alcohol being passed around as well.

Fridays in Lent are big business for restaurants here, and even Catholics who rarely go out on the town try to get out for one of these fabulous seafood dinners. I was on a thread about this awhile back. The whole idea of sacrifice, seems to have gone out the window.

I don’t get your “morally superior” statement. Are you saying that there are no ethical issues in meat production that bring its consumption into question?

BTW Mary, I think that we*** should make sacrifices in Lent, but not* eating meat doesn’t seem to be much of a sacrifice for omnivores these days. If you replace the meat with a tasty alternative, and over-indulge (all you-can-eat buffet) does that not negate the sacrifice of giving up meat???

One of my kids did a report on when the meat abstinence tradition started in the Church. I recall hearing that one of the reasons it was started was to promote the fish industry. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe, with all these Lenten fish frys, and growing numbers of vegans and vegetarians, the Church should consider re-focusing on the sacrifice part of this tradition.

I don’t think this no meat sacrifice is a sacrifice today. Seafood can be more expensive and it is really no sacrifice for most to substitute. Now going vegetarian on Fridays, that would be a sacrifice for most.

 

[severus68]

I’d hardly consider the vegie farming any better. With the massive amounts of industrial poisons they poor on food to kill off fungus, insects and other living matter, our food supply has been irreversably tainted. Unlike animals, plants are less able to filter these poisons out of their systems.

If you believe in being good stewards of God’s creation, that means no such poisons too. I do not use one drop of chemical fertilizers or pesticides on my plants.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

DOShea

I’m totally with you. People get all bent out of shape because the bottom shelf beef producers inhumarely treat their animals. That’s why they are so cheap and bottom shelf. Beef, chicken, pork, turkey, etc tastes incredibly poor when raised in such a way, and the texture is wrong. Not to mention it makes people sick.

I also feel frustrated because the mistreatment of animals is NOT common. Very few places do this, and yes, they should be avoided. Pretty easy for me to tell who they are, because if I eat it, I get to make an all night trip to the bathroom because I was raised on ethically raised meat, and anything with any “additives” will send me packing. The problem is, its the classic 90/10 scenario. The 10 percent of the people who do it get 90 percent of the media attention, leading everyone to believe that 90 percent of the meat producers do it.

As to the OP’s comments, the argument that Jesus ate lamb at passover is to show that Christ ate meat. Since he was sinless, we can argue that eating meat is NOT a sin. He also ate fish, and given the region he was in I am willing to bet he ate lots of animal products such as cheese, and wore leather. You also have to bear in mind that when we discuss the ethics of eating meat, God has given direction for eating meat as well as clearing ALL animals for consumption in the book of Acts. He never once says it’s wrong. We can argue that the unethical treatment of animals is wrong, but eating meat in and of itself is in no way sinful.

 

[Indyann]

Originally Posted by Marfran
One of my kids did a report on when the meat abstinence tradition started in the Church. I recall hearing that one of the reasons it was started was to promote the fish industry. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe, with all these Lenten fish frys, and growing numbers of vegans and vegetarians, the Church should consider re-focusing on the sacrifice part of this tradition.

I had heard that too, about fish on Fridays. I don’t know where I heard it. I don’t think it’s odd at all to learn the history of things. I did a little checking and I’m finding bits and pieces here and there. Does anyone know where this can be answered definitively? I was looking in the Catholic Encyclopedia but after reading and reading through a lot of stuff I could not find an exact answer.

You won’t find any support for this because it is a slur made up to discredit the Church. That is why I found it so odd to be posted by a Catholic.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250467&highlight=history+of+friday+abstinence

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

part of our traditions as Catholics is to abstain from meat during various parts of the year. My DH obstains from meat on Fridays all through the year. So friday dinner is usually meatless.

The reason why we abstain from meat is because it is a sacrifice. We give something up to rememeber Jesus and his suffering. I don’t think we give up meat because it is morally superior to do so.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

Being a vegetarian or vegan are all choices we can make if we want. I don’t make that choice.

I stand by what I wrote. Abstaining from meat on Fridays is a sacrifice. That is the tradition of the Church. It isn’t to sponsor the fishing industry. Catholics are to abstain from meat on certain days. They are not* required* to eat seafood that day. And I don’t beleive the Church will change it’s traditions. If a vegan/vegetarian would like to give something else up they are more than free to do so.

I believe when giving something up for Lent, it should be something one actually likes. I could give up cabbage during Lent, but it isn’t a sacrifice on my part, considering I don’t particularly like cabbage.

 

[4elise]

A few reasons come to mind when I join in. Some are annoyances , and some are fears. I take umbrage with anyone who sugests I am doing something immoral based on my choice of food to eat. if you go to other threads in social justuce you will see Im getting it on other subjects too. Take a look at anything with a transgender issue in it and you will see I am getting slammed. I’m quite frankly tired of these topics being put in social justuce or moral theology, notice when these topics are I take you guys head on about it and I don’t go whining to the moderators about it. Right now because of unemployem,mnt I have little to look foreword to, I’m supposed to take away looking foreword to dinner too? Now for the fear. In the current political climate Im already seeing this attitude slipping in to decisions of policy. Baltimore public school system for hot lunch started meatless mondays this year. I can see that being a problems for a hypoglycemic child right of the bat. Yes they do exist, my mom was one. I can see it reaching the current healthcare debate very easily on either side of the public healthcare issue, that absolutely scares me to death. I happen to be a big Atkins diet fan. My mother went on it. While she lost a token amount of weight, I have never seen her more healthy in my 41 years on this earth which happens to equate to about 2/3 of her lifetime. Theres lots of misinformation out there And I have no desire for it to upset tradition and rule my life.Ill leave with this little tidbit of history. During the time Christ walked the earth, the main thing the European Romans cooked in was olive oil, at the same time the main thing the Geramnic tribes peoples to the north cooked in was butter. The Romans were far better at farming thus the Germans to the north ate a much higher percentage of meat than the typical Roman citizen or even Roman soldier for that matter. Romans considered eating meat a bit barbaric. Well when dying natural death who lived longer? The Germans to the north, and that had many Romans who were aware of the Germans jealous. Sounds like genetics to me. I( think if the Celts and Slavs of that era would have a similer situation to the Germans.

I guess I look at these threads differently - my aim in posting is to have a respectful discussion, sometimes people agree, sometimes they don’t - I have NEVER read on any of the threads someone say that someone is immoral for eating meat - in fact the vegans among us have tried to say pretty much the opposite - speaking for myself only - it resonates with my faith because of animal, environmental and resource issues.

I do have a point of view - as you do, we’ve found that we disagree. I have not intention of ‘slamming you’ and hope you won’t try to ‘slam me’ either…

I find it hard when people post things that are untrue. You in the past have said that vegans don’t live long, and I’ve provided information on the folks at Loma Linda who are vegans and do - you’ve said that atkins works for you and your mom - and then that is how you should eat I guess…

But one thing I’ve never been able to make clear is that protein is protein - you could do atkins on a vegan diet - tofu, beans, tempeh, nuts - all protein that can be substituted for animal protein if one wanted to - if one does not want to - then really I still then don’t understand why engaging in the conversation? Unless one takes pleasure just in arguing? I don’t enjoy arguing just for the sake of arguing.

So - sending you prayers for your job hunt - hope you know that once again I offer this with complete respect for your position, and hoping that it will be returned.

 

[4elise]

I’ve been ovo-lacto-vegetarian (milk and eggs permitted) a couple times in my life. The biggest problem I encountered is visiting the homes of family and friends. It was hard for me to make them cater to my food preferences.

JoeJetsen, Our Lord taught much, but He didn’t give us directions on what to eat. Yes, it is true that our diets are quite different from life in the eastern Mediterranean 2000 years ago. But our entire lives are different than they were 2000 years ago. This isn’t a bad thing in itself.

Since about half our family is vegan and half omin - we do pot lucks for all the gathering - we pick a theme - Mexican / Italian / Chinese - and then we all bring our goodies!

 

[4elise]

I guess I’ll have my say in this thread too, then I really gotta get back to work!

As a vegan for ethical reasons,
Second, I believe that the human race is supposed to be growing in faith, understanding, compassion and love, although it may be a two-step forward one-step back kind of thing. Maybe sometime in the far future, a meatless diet will be the norm as part of this trend. (If one is a Star Trek fan, that’s an assumption they make there). \

live long and prosper!

 

[aspawloski4th]

I guess I look at these threads differently - my aim in posting is to have a respectful discussion, sometimes people agree, sometimes they don’t - I have NEVER read on any of the threads someone say that someone is immoral for eating meat - in fact the vegans among us have tried to say pretty much the opposite - speaking for myself only - it resonates with my faith because of animal, environmental and resource issues.

I do have a point of view - as you do, we’ve found that we disagree. I have not intention of ‘slamming you’ and hope you won’t try to ‘slam me’ either…

I find it hard when people post things that are untrue. You in the past have said that vegans don’t live long, and I’ve provided information on the folks at Loma Linda who are vegans and do - you’ve said that atkins works for you and your mom - and then that is how you should eat I guess…

But one thing I’ve never been able to make clear is that protein is protein - you could do atkins on a vegan diet - tofu, beans, tempeh, nuts - all protein that can be substituted for animal protein if one wanted to - if one does not want to - then really I still then don’t understand why engaging in the conversation? Unless one takes pleasure just in arguing? I don’t enjoy arguing just for the sake of arguing.

So - sending you prayers for your job hunt - hope you know that once again I offer this with complete respect for your position, and hoping that it will be returned.

You actually don’t bother me a bit. But there are others that join in these threads with a much more strident tone than yours who I actually fear a bit. You talk about protein is protein, it’s aactually a bit ore complicated than that. To get the protein you need from plants you have to know what you are doing to the best. Also one must remember vitamin D, Vitamin B12 come only from animal sources. While Iron can come from plant sources you have to make darn sure you are eating the correct plant matter to get it. By the way you might find this interesting and surprising like I did. Because of my kidneystone history of passing 35 stones, I have to try my best to avoid food with the ion oxalate in them. Meat of any kind has no oxalate in it. The list of foods I have to avoid is from plant sources.

 

[athansor]

You actually don’t bother me a bit. But there are others that join in these threads with a much more strident tone than yours who I actually fear a bit. You talk about protein is protein, it’s aactually a bit ore complicated than that. To get the protein you need from plants you have to know what you are doing to the best. Also one must remember vitamin D, Vitamin B12 come only from animal sources. While Iron can come from plant sources you have to make darn sure you are eating the correct plant matter to get it. By the way you might find this interesting and surprising like I did. Because of my kidneystone history of passing 35 stones, I have to try my best to avoid food with the ion oxalate in them. Meat of any kind has no oxalate in it. The list of foods I have to avoid is from plant sources.

I believe that vitamin D3 is only from animal sources. There are non-animal sourced B-12 and D2. Some claim that we absorb D3 better than D2, so many vegans take a bit more supplemental D2 along with a B-12 supplement.

It’s interesting about the kidney stones. My husband had gallstones and it seemed it was just the opposite, he had to avoid dairy and other high fat foods. But 35 kidney stones, yikes, that must be a real bad deal.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I believe that vitamin D3 is only from animal sources. There are non-animal sourced B-12 and D2. Some claim that we absorb D3 better than D2, so many vegans take a bit more supplemental D2 along with a B-12 supplement.

It’s interesting about the kidney stones. My husband had gallstones and it seemed it was just the opposite, he had to avoid dairy and other high fat foods. But 35 kidney stones, yikes, that must be a real bad deal.

It is a bad deal. That despite the fact I drink tons of liquids also… Many of those plant sources of protein are high in the oxalate I have to avoid. Peanuts and soy are loaded with that ion. There is no cost to big to avoid kidneystones.