Jesus Ben Annanias?

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Hagan, in his intro, states that he is not a theologian and didn’t care where his research led him. He was working off what he considered to be the best historic sources, all of which are flawed to some degree and yes, this is a judgment call.

But you can’t assign equal weights to every source you use.
By default, Josephus should be accepted over other non-Christian sources. And I agree with that.
It is hardly cherry-picking.
It is what it is.
Josephus was a near-contemporary of Jesus’, which places him above all other sources except maybe for Philo.
And we know who he was because he wrote his own autobiography.
Josephus has errors in numbers most likely, but they could be translational.
He was dismissed for a long time partially due to his description of the seaport of Caesarea, but that has been confirmed.
Josephus has biases- but they can be derived from his own biography. He was great friends with the Vespasian family, and, more importantly, Agrippa II. So Herodias and Salome, Agrippa II’s aunt and cousin respectively, were given a pass when it came to the reason for the execution of JB.
“The problem with this is that, in this section of Josephus’ Antiquities, many of the stories are not in chronological order.” One the one extreme, Kokkinos and Hagan argue that the section should be read in one way to advance their theory of an AD 36 crucifixion date, while on the other extreme Vardaman (and Robert Eisler before him) argue it should be read the other way to advance the theory of an AD 21 crucifixion date. That is the problem caused by a literal reading of Josephus. How do you know Kokkinos’ and Hagan’s reading of the section is correct and Vardaman’s isn’t? Both sides here are reading Josephus ‘literally’ (dare I say, commit scholarly fundamentalism) after all.
 
Well, you have to look at WHAT is out of chronological order.

Probably the biggest is the removal of Pilate. Tiberius died in A.D. 37 in Spring- around the time of the start of the Passover. Vitellius was in Jerusalem for the Passover and removed Pilate at that time. On the way to Rome, word was received that Tiberius was dead.

So that should be written in stone by every “scholar” or purported scholar- Pilate was NOT in power to see the Passover of A.D. 37. And Vitellius WAS in Jerusalem.

That was Vitellius’ second visit to Jerusalem- the second Passover- since he was placed in power in early A.D. 35 by Tiberius.

The question becomes when his SECOND visit was. Was it A.D. 35 or A.D. 36? Hagan argues it had to be A.D. 36 for many reasons.

But if you want to argue these points you really should get a hold of Hagan’s books instead of quoting from Amazon blurbs.
 
I am reading the rest of your comments several posts previously.
Regarding the Essenes, it is not a central tenant in Hagan’s work- just an observation. Remember, the Essenes avoided the Temple and abhorred animal sacrifice.

(BTW, I got a copy of his Essene Diet, and it not a diet at all, The Essenes apparently took their first meal of the day around noon after working all morning. Hagan (Doctor!) runs with this and apparently had a group of patients limit their food intake to the afternoons and early evenings and they began to lose weight and feel better to boot! So there you go. And entire chapter devoted to Josephus’ description of the Essenes, FWIW.)

Hagan deliberately didn’t read any other sources, and went with the original material.

He goes back further, and traces the beginning of things to the attempted assassination of Tiberius in late A.D. 31. Hagan speculates that this is what drove Herodias to the east to marry her uncle, and also caused Herod Agrippa, her brother, to leave Rome as well.
So then we are off to the races.
When Herod Philip died in A.D. 34, Tiberius did not automatically give Philip’s kingdom over to Antipas. Hagan argues that the invasion of Nabotea by Antipas was him trying to prove himself to Tiberius- urged on by the vain and avaricious Herodias.
Hagan suggests that John was arrested in late A.D. 34, and executed in early A.D. 35. After the shocking execution, Jesus retreat to the Decapolis seeking safety and keeping out of Antipas’ way.

So you see, delving deeper into the nuances of Roman history can give great perspective to Christian events, and answer a lot of questions.

In Book 18, Josephus was drawing from many different sources, and juggling them as best he could. Time errors occurred.
 
Well, you have to look at WHAT is out of chronological order.

Probably the biggest is the removal of Pilate. Tiberius died in A.D. 37 in Spring- around the time of the start of the Passover. Vitellius was in Jerusalem for the Passover and removed Pilate at that time. On the way to Rome, word was received that Tiberius was dead.

So that should be written in stone by every “scholar” or purported scholar- Pilate was NOT in power to see the Passover of A.D. 37. And Vitellius WAS in Jerusalem.

That was Vitellius’ second visit to Jerusalem- the second Passover- since he was placed in power in early A.D. 35 by Tiberius.

The question becomes when his SECOND visit was. Was it A.D. 35 or A.D. 36? Hagan argues it had to be A.D. 36 for many reasons.
And that’s EXACTLY what Sanders is criticizing. Here’s a rundown of the relevant section again:
  1. the appointment of Pilate, Antiq. 18.35 (AD 26)
  2. the death of Germanicus, 18.54 (AD 19)
    3. the life of Jesus, 18.63
  3. a scandal in Rome involving the Isis cult, and another scandal involving Jews, also in Rome, 18.64 (AD 37)
  4. the dismissal of Pilate, 18.89 (AD 37)
  5. the dismissal of Caiaphas, 18.95
  6. a letter from Tiberius to Vitellius 18.96
  7. the death of Philip, 18.106 (AD 33/34)
  8. Antipas’ agreement to marry Herodias, 18.110
  9. the trip of Aretas’ daughter to her father, 18.111-13
  10. Aretas’ invasion, 18.114
    12. the death of John the Baptist, 18.116-119
  11. the punitive expedition against Aretas, during which Tiberius died, 18.120-26 (AD 37)
The overall line of reasoning adopted by Kokkinos (and I presume - correct me if I’m wrong - Hagan) is: the gospels place John the Baptist before Jesus, but Josephus in Antiquities relate his death (18.116-119) after that of Jesus (18.63). Kokkinos assumes that Josephus starting from 18.110 (Philip’s death) up to the invasion of Aretas (18.120-126) - numbers 8 to 13 in the list above - suddenly began to narrate things in chronological order. So the passage about Jesus should be fitted somewhere in between that time period (AD 34-37): and since as mentioned the gospels place John before Jesus, 18.63 should be placed after 18.116-119. The key here is to think that Josephus placed John’s death in its proper chronological order.

Eisler’s and Vardaman’s idea, meanwhile, rests on the assumption that 18.54 and 18.63 is in chronological order. After all, this is how the section reads in order:

At this time died Antiochus, the king of Commagene; whereupon the multitude contended with the nobility, and both sent ambassadors to [Rome]; for the men of power were desirous that their form of government might be changed into that of a [Roman] province; as were the multitude desirous to be under kings, as their fathers had been. So the senate made a decree that Germanicus should be sent to settle the affairs of the East, fortune hereby taking a proper opportunity for depriving him of his life; for when he had been in the East, and settled all affairs there, his life was taken away by the poison which Piso gave him, as hath been related elsewhere.

[The standards at Caesarea and the aqueduct incident; 18.55-62]

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, [if it be lawful to call him a man;] for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. [He was [the] Christ.] And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; [for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.] And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Since Germanicus’ appointment happened in AD 19, and because Josephus refers to Jesus just after that beginning with “about this time,” Vardaman argues that Jesus was crucified at that year. What are we then to make of Pilate though? No worry, we can just argue that the standard date given for his prefecture (AD 26-36) is actually incorrect: we should redate him to AD 15-26. JoB’s first emergence meanwhile could be moved to AD 18/19. All in all, Eisler’s Vardaman’s thesis requires a major revision of the chronology: most or all the dates should be moved back more or less a decade earlier. In this case, 18.116-119 should be placed just before or in between 18.54 and 18.63. The key in his thesis is to think that Josephus placed Germanicus’ appointment and Jesus’ crucifixion in their proper chronological order. (What about Luke 3:1, which speaks of “the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar”? Just assume that it is a corrupt reading and that “the second year” is meant.)

There’s a third option BTW: simply assume that the gospels were wrong in placing Jesus after John and thinking that the order found in Josephus is correct.
But if you want to argue these points you really should get a hold of Hagan’s books instead of quoting from Amazon blurbs.
Steve, I’ve been meaning to say this for a while now, but I think you don’t really advertise Hagan very well. 😉 So far you just keep telling me to buy his books: it’d be fine if I had money, but I’m currently a college student who can’t always eat a decent lunch because I’m short on cash - I can’t even buy books like I used to.

So I think the pertinent question is, do the books have something that would pique my interest.
 
Germanicus DIED in A.D. 19.

Clearly, Book 18 of Josephus is derived from many sources, and there are chronologic errors.

You have to look at the histories of the individuals mentioned in other Roman sources, specifically Antipas, Herodias, Agrippa I, and Philip, for clarity.

If you don’t want to read Hagan, instead of quoting from others on the subject, read the original works of Tacitus, Josephus, and others to make your own investigation into things.

For a college student, you must have a lot of free time on your hands to make over 12,000 posts.
 
Germanicus DIED in A.D. 19.
Okay. Although to be fair Germanicus did die not too long after that.
Clearly, Book 18 of Josephus is derived from many sources, and there are chronologic errors.
You have to look at the histories of the individuals mentioned in other Roman sources, specifically Antipas, Herodias, Agrippa I, and Philip, for clarity.
If you don’t want to read Hagan, instead of quoting from others on the subject, read the original works of Tacitus, Josephus, and others to make your own investigation into things.
I’m just reminded - one should also consider the chronology of Paul when considering Jesus. And that’s why I don’t subscribe to the idea of a late crucifixion as expressed by Kokkinos - I haven’t seen him handle Paul’s chronology in a convincing way.
For a college student, you must have a lot of free time on your hands to make over 12,000 posts.
(Okay, now I’m really sorry to the OP for steering this thread off-track)

If you haven’t noticed, I’m a nerd, yes. 🤓 Or well, you can just imagine that I’m really an obese, balding, unemployed forty-year old living in a basement somewhere in my underpants. Your mental image will probably be worlds more handsome than what I actually look. 🤷 :cool:

Call all these my little escapes from reality if you will - real life just digs into your head and drives you crazy. I’ve been since I, like, started middle school around seven years ago - which was when I had a lot of free time. Now? CAF’s eating into the little free time that I have, to be honest. And yes, I think’s it’s really bad. I’m twenty-one - I can’t stay here forever and write stuff that nobody ever reads!

Anyways, I consider 95% of my posts here in CAF unnecessarily devoted to useless stuff that don’t have real life functionality: out of that 12,000 posts the only thing that ultimately proved to be helpful and useful to me were the few prayers. The rest (even the ones here) - they can all go and rot. The two things I learned: “The more you know, the more you know you don’t know.” And: “For in much wisdom is much vexation, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.”
 
Patrick, you are a credit to the board- fresh-faced college student or kindly basement recluse, whichever you are.

Paul’s chronology fits in quite nicely, actually, with his epiphany occurring in the late fall of A.D. 37.

That is a whole different topic, but I am game if you are.

To summarize what got us off-track, Cornbread made asked a very reasonable question as to why Jesus was crucified by the Romans encouraged by the High Preisthood, but then right afterwards Jesus’ followers were allowed to roam about Jerusalem largely unmolested through to the Miracle of the Tongues.

The answer is a late crucifixion date, specifically A.D. 36, and a scenario put forth by my favorite author.

Pilate was forced in crucifying the harmless Jesus. Later that same Passover, General Vitellius arrived shortly afterwards and was outraged at what he learned. Caiaphas was removed as High Priest, and Pilate put on notice.

For months afterwards, the new High Priest Jonathan left the Christians alone, knowing that Vitellius was going to return next year with a force to invade Nabotea. But he couldn’t help himself when Stephen boldly insulted him, and he set Saul and others like him loose on the Christians. Pilate, in fact, might have thought that a new charismatic Samarian leader was either the survived Jesus, or one of his disciples, and set his auxiliaries out after them.

When Vitellius returned to Jerusalem the next year early in A.D. 37, he removed both Pilate and Jonathan for what they had done. When Vitellius learned that Tiberius had died, and Caligula gave no orders to continue the expedition, he retreated back into Syria.
 
Patrick, you are a credit to the board- fresh-faced college student or kindly basement recluse, whichever you are.

Paul’s chronology fits in quite nicely, actually, with his epiphany occurring in the late fall of A.D. 37.

That is a whole different topic, but I am game if you are.
That’s really the problem for me. You see, that’s also Kokkinos’ (let’s leave Hagan out for a moment and focus on this guy) idea - but then again that’s your only available alternative if you move Jesus’ crucifixion to the latest possible date of AD 36. But if we do suppose that Paul was ‘converted’ around, say, late in AD 37 or after that, it would be at odds with the possible date of when the council in Jerusalem (cf. Galatians 2:1ff; Acts 15) was held: AD 49-51, working backwards from his Corinthian ministry and trial before Junius Gallio in Achaea (Acts 18:1-17), which is firmly dated to AD 50-52, thanks to the Delphi Inscription.

Tiber[ius Claudius Cae]sar Augustus Ge[rmanicus, invested with tribunician po]wer [for the 12th time, acclaimed Imperator for t]he 26th time, F[ather of the Fa]ther[land…]. For a l[ong time have I been not onl]y [well-disposed towards t]he ci[ty] of Delphsperity, and I have always guard[ed th]e cul[t of t]he [Pythian] Apol[lo. But] now [since] it is said to be desti[tu]te of [citi]zens, as [L. Jun]ius Gallio, my fri[end] an[d procon]sul, [recently reported to me, and being desirous that Delphi] should retain [inta]ct its for[mer rank, I] ord[er you (pl.) to in]vite well-born people also from [ot]her cities [to Delphi as new inhabitants…]

It’s difficult to determine when the twenty-sixth and twenty-seventh acclamations of Claudius took place. If the twenty-sixth acclamation took place after the first significant victory in the spring campaign of AD 52, then Claudius must have written the letter in the spring or early summer. It would seem likely that Gallio’s term was somewhere between 51 to 53, which we could narrow to July of 51 to July of 52. (Note that Gallio did not complete his term as proconsul because of poor health, and would have left the province before the dangers of winter travel began to set - Gallio would have only been in Corinth between June and October.) Since Paul is likely to have left Corinth before the arrival of the new governor could prompt renewed accusations from the Jewish quarter, we may locate Paul’s arrival around AD 50; 18:11 itself notes that Paul was at Corinth for “a year and six months” before he was brought before Gallio.

Paul himself states in Galatians that:

For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers. But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!) Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” And they glorified God because of me.

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.

That gives us a total of fourteen to seventeen years (if we consider the “three years” to be distinct from the “fourteen years” he describes afterwards), give or take a year or two - considering the Jewish habit to cite part years as full years. If we suppose the council of Jerusalem was held around, say, AD 50, it would give us the approximate year when Paul was converted at the period between AD 33 to 36. There might be some narrow allowance for 37 (if you shift the possible year the council occurred at AD 51, which itself is also being quite generous) but that’s the key word: narrow.*
 
(Continued)

Kokkinos, however, finds that a fourteen-year period of silence in the life of Paul is hard to accept, so he argued that “fourteen” (dekatessarōn) is a corrupt reading. Instead, he invoked the authority of the 12th century manuscript Minuscule 1241, which reads “four” (tessarōn). But here’s the thing - aside from the fact that the manuscript is very late, it is known that the scribe who wrote it was very careless; the text of the NT books are riddled with minor errors. To be honest, citing a late, poorly-written manuscript which has a reading which goes against all other known witnesses to Galatians, early or late - 1241 is the only manuscript which has the tessarōn reading - is pretty much a desperate last resort.

In fact, in trying to seek support, Kokkinos even shot down his own theory unwittingly when he quoted the 19th century German scholar Karl Wieseler:

My conclusion on this point is in agreement with past research. For example, K. Wieseler wrote: 'Because of chronological embarassment, not a few scholars … have wanted to write tessarón for decatessarón, though contra all manuscript evidence."

Even though we now have an attestation of tessarōn from a single (late) manuscript, the very fact that it’s too late and carry an error-riddled text makes it suspect. It’s highly doubtful that this 12th-century manuscript is the only one which carries the original reading while all the others written before and after it are corrupt, which is what Kokkinos is implying. I hate to be snarky but this has about the same level of credibility as Vardaman’s ‘microletters’.
 
Just to look more closely at Book 18 of Antiquities.
  1. the appointment of Pilate, Antiq. 18.35 (26 CE)
  2. the death of Germanicus, 18.54 (19 CE)
  3. the life of Jesus, 18.638
  4. a scandal in Rome involving the Isis cult, and another scandal involving Jews, also in Rome
    (37 CE)
  5. the dismissal of Pilate, 18.89, giving a specific date: by the time Pilate reached Rome,
    Tiberius had died (37 CE)
  6. the dismissal of Caiaphas, 18.95
  7. a letter from Tiberius to Vitellius 18.96
  8. the death of Philip, 18.106 (33/34 CE)
  9. Antipas’ agreement to marry Herodias, 18.110
  10. the trip of Aretas’ daughter to her father, 18.111-13
  11. Aretas’ invasion, 18.114
  12. the death of John the Baptist, 18.116-119
  13. the punitive expedition against Aretas, during which Tiberius died, 18.120-26 (37 CE)
Not looking at the original and accepting the above, there are several problems.

-Of course, Pilate was appointed (1) AFTER the death of Germanicus (2).
-The letter to Antipas from Tiberius (7) was sent while Pilate was still in power and had not yet been dismissed (5).
-Pilate was dismissed by Vitellius and sent to Rome (5) before the Passover of A.D. 37 during the early punitive expedition led by Vitellius (13).

Other points on the chronology need Tacitus for confirmation.

-Caiaphas was dismissed by Vitellius on his first visit to Jerusalem. Vitellius was appointed in early A.D. 35 by Tiberius. Did Vitellius go straight to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover of that year? Why would he? Far more likely, he proceeded to Armenia to organize the local tribes to battle the son of King Artabanus of Parthia and begin the process of placing Tiridates on the Parthian throne.

This makes A.D. 36 the last possible year for Jesus’ crucifixion.

-From the book of John, the death of John the Baptist occurred shortly before the Passover before Jesus’ final Passover, which, accepting a A.D. 36 crucifixion date, would be early in A.D. 35 (which actually roughly fits with Book 18).

Point being there are inconsistencies and Josephus’ Book 18 cannot be relied on alone for a time line.

The only way things could conceivably work was if Vitellius removed Pilate from office in A.D. 35 and kept him on “ice” for two years before sending him on to Rome and Tiberius, which makes no sense.

When did Herodias leave Rome to marry Antipas? Why did Antipas war with Nabotea, and where was the battle? Key questions.

Here, the further histories of Herodias and her brother Herod Agrippa are indispensable, as Josephus charts the course of both she and the future Agrippa I with some care.
 
These ones for now.
several problems.

-Of course, Pilate was appointed (1) AFTER the death of Germanicus (2).
Not according to Jerry Vardaman and his revisionist chronology! 😃 :rolleyes:
-From the book of John, the death of John the Baptist occurred shortly before the Passover before Jesus’ final Passover, which, accepting a A.D. 36 crucifixion date, would be early in A.D. 35 (which actually roughly fits with Book 18).
John’s gospel doesn’t mention anything about JB’s death. The last time John appears in person within the gospel is at chapter 3; 4:2 mentions Jesus’ disciples baptizing more people than John, and Jesus refers to John at 5:35, but his death is narrated nowhere in the gospel. He disappears after he had fulfilled his function in the story - bearing witness to Jesus. Chronologically in John’s gospel, John drops out of the scene between the Passover of chapter 2 (where John places his version of the cleansing of the Temple) and the “feast of the Judaeans” in chapter 5 and the Passover of chapter 6 (where Jesus feeds the five thousand). The final Passover of the gospel - the one where Jesus dies - occurs in chapter 18-19.

It is true that in Mark’s and Matthew’s gospels, the death of John is related in connection with Antipas’ fears of Jesus being John redivivus (Mark 6:14-29; Matthew 14:1-12) immediately before the feeding of the five thousand (Mark 6:30-44; Matthew 14:13-21), although as a flashback. Luke also doesn’t retell the story of John’s beheading but simply makes an off-hand reference to it via Antipas’ dialogue (9:7-8). As in the other two synoptics, this is placed immediately before the feeding of the thousand (9:9-17). So at least in the synoptic chronology, John dies somewhere before that - which one could harmonize with JB’s disappearance from the narrative before chapters 5-6 in John’s chronology. But exactly when is ambiguous, due to the flashback nature of the narrative.

Matthew has Jesus “[withdrawing] from there in a boat to a desolate place by himself” apparently in direct consequence of Antipas’ fears and the death of John (“And his disciples came and took the body and buried it, and they went and told Jesus. Now when Jesus heard this;” 14:12-13). In Mark and Luke however, the twelve had just returned to Jesus after the latter had sent them away on a mission (Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:1-6) - their departure and their return sandwiches the pericope about Antipas and John. Hence, Jesus does not go “by Himself,” but with the Twelve (Mark 6:31-32; Luke 9:9-10). The way the passage reads in these two gospels, no explicit connection between their going into a deserted area and Antipas’ fears and John’s death is made, as in Matthew. (No mention of John’s disciples coming to tell Jesus about John’s death is made in Mark.) At least in Mark, they went into the deserted area to get a chance to rest, “for many were coming and going, and they had no leisure even to eat.” (6:31). Matthew does not have a parallel story to Mark’s and Luke’s mission of the twelve, so the last explicit reference to the disciples are in 13:51-52, where Jesus asks them if they had understood His parables. They only reappear in 14:15; unlike in Mark and Luke, we can read the text as inferring that the disciples came to the place after Jesus (“Now when it was evening, the disciples came to him and said…”)

It might be worth pointing out that John’s feeding of the five thousand does occur near the Passover season in spring (6:4 “now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand”), which one could harmonize with Mark’s reference to “green grass” (6:38). But then again, Mark or the other synoptics do not say when the event took place - not taking John into consideration, one could argue that Mark’s feeding story might also have occurred after Passover, considering that green grass may stay green in sheltered and well watered spots on into early summer. Both arguments are likely.
 
Point being there are inconsistencies and Josephus’ Book 18 cannot be relied on alone for a time line.

The only way things could conceivably work was if Vitellius removed Pilate from office in A.D. 35 and kept him on “ice” for two years before sending him on to Rome and Tiberius, which makes no sense.

When did Herodias leave Rome to marry Antipas? Why did Antipas war with Nabotea, and where was the battle? Key questions.

Here, the further histories of Herodias and her brother Herod Agrippa are indispensable, as Josephus charts the course of both she and the future Agrippa I with some care.
Backtracking a bit here:

To repeat myself, the foundation of the AD 36 crucifixion is really John’s death. I’ll repeat Sanders:

I shall comment just a little more on the theory of Nikos Kokkinos, which has been recently accepted by the eminent historian, Robin Lane Fox.11 Kokkinos’ basic argument, as we have seen, is that in the Antiquities the story about John the Baptist comes after the death of Philip and before the expedition against Aretas, both of which can be firmly dated: 33/4 and 37 respectively. It is beyond doubt that the punitive expedition against Aretas was connected to the fact that Antipas had decided to marry Herodias. The sequence must have been this: Antipas planned to bring Herodias to Galilee; the Roman troops in Syria launched a punitive expedition against Aretas. It is reasonable to think that Antipas’ domestic rearrangement occurred immediately before Aretas’ invasion. If John the Baptist criticized the new marriage, and if Aretas responded promptly when his daughter was replaced, then John was alive very near the year 37. Kokkinos, following this line of reasoning, writes, ‘as soon as the alliance between the two kings [Antipas and Aretas] was broken [by the divorce], Aretas exploited the pretext of a border dispute and proclaimed war on Antipas’.12

This is plausible speculation with regard to the divorce and Aretas’ retaliation. But it is a speculation. We do not know ‘as soon as’: that is the question, not necessarily the answer. Josephus wrote that Aretas’ daughter ‘reached her father and told him what Herod [Antipas] planned to do. Aretas made this the beginning of hostility over boundaries in the district of Gamala.’13 ‘Made this the beginning of’ is not necessarily ‘as soon as’; on the contrary, one supposes that some time elapsed between the divorce and the war.

Kokkinos’ second defence of his theory is that the Jews considered Antipas’ defeat to be just retribution because he had executed John. ‘To argue that the Jews felt God’s revenge did not occur immediately after the deed is deceptive. Circumstances in the recent rather than the distant past would be more likely to make the Jews attribute divine punishments.’14 This is partly sheer supposition and partly a weak argument. It is not deceptive to say that Jews thought that God’s revenge tarried if that is what they thought. Kokkinos seems to imagine that they had a choice and decided in favour of speedy rather than delayed retribution. But since John was widely revered, and since his execution was extremely unpopular, those who resented Antipas’ action would have waited for some really serious blow to him before declaring God had vindicated John. An immediate blow would have been desirable, from this point of view, but John’s many admirers had to take what they could get. If the worst thing that happened to Antipas during the next five years was that he strained his ankle while getting out of the bath, the populace would have waited for something worse. When Aretas defeated Antipas’ army, those who had been waiting – how long we do not know – proclaimed that God had exacted retribution.
 
(Continued)

It is best to think that the story of Antipas, Herodias and the execution of John is a ‘flashback’, out of its historical sequence.15 The story of John’s execution, in fact, is quite obviously a flashback: Josephus refers to it after the event that it is said to have caused. In this entire section (9-13) Josephus arranged the materially (sic) topically; this explains why the stories about Herodias, Aretas’ invasion and the execution of John come so close together. Their proximity in Josephus’ narrative by no means proves that they actually occurred in rapid sequence. Looking back at the list above, we see that the dateable events are 8 and 13. 9-12 appear where they do because they are related in subject matter to 13. We do not know that all these events were squeezed into the period between 8 and 13. Consequently, we do not know when Antipas met Herodias, when his former wife fled to her father, and when John was executed.

Also quoting from Bruce Chilton’s article “John the Purifier: His immersion and His Death.”

The Chronology of John’s Death

Josephus’ famous report about John in Antiquities 18 § 116-119 is a flashback, related to explain the opinion among “some Jews” that the defeat of Antipas’ army at the hands of Aretas, the king of Nabatea, was divine retribution for his treatment of John. What Josephus does not say, but the Gospels do attest (Mark 6:18-29; Matthew 14:3-12; Luke 3:19-20), is that John had criticized Antipas for marrying Herodias, who had been married to his brother Philip. Josephus’ account dovetails with the Gospels,43 in that he gives the details of Antipas abortive divorce from Aretas’ daughter in order to marry Herodias (§ 109-112).44 But Josephus also explains that this was merely the initial source of the enmity, which was later exacerbated by a border dispute that preceded the outbreak of hostilities (§ 113).

In fact, he says that Aretas “made this the start of a quarrel,” as if it were something of a self-justification in retrospect. No delay of time is indicated in the compressed narrative between the divorce and John’s death and the start of the war, but mounting tension is indicated. It is also noteworthy that Josephus blames the defeat on the betrayal by some of Philip’s troops, who had joined his army (§ 114). So: the delay is long enough for tension to have mounted with Aretas, and for Antipas - however unwisely - to believe that his brother’s troops would loyally fight for him.45 Philip died in 34 (see § 106), and this defeat is usually placed c. 36. The death of Philip would have provided ample motivation for the soldiers to join Antipas, and a delay of some fifteen years from the divorce would perhaps account for Antipas’ acceptance of their services.
 
(Continued)

It has been suggested that John died as late as 32 CE,46 but that seems not to fit the case, or any accepted chronology of Jesus’ life. Indeed, the late dating of John’s death has caused Joan Taylor to imagine a radically revised chronology of Jesus’ death: John may have been killed as late as 33 or early in 34. For all we know, Jesus’ death may have followed quite soon after, or as late as 36.47 That view comes, however, of accepting Josephus’ association of the death of John with the tenure of Vitellius, when Josephus himself introduces the material about John as a flashback. That analeptic technique is as natural to Josephus as compressed narration is in the Gospels. Account of both needs to be taken in establishing the time of John’s death, which therefore need not be placed immediately before Antipas’ defeat, nor near the time of Jesus’ execution.
F. F. Bruce long ago warned about pressing Josephus’ presentation literally:

It may well be, as Josephus says, that some of Antipas’s subjects saw in this defeat the divine nemesis for Antipas’s execution of John the Baptist; but it is unimaginative to conclude that John’s execution must therefore have been much more recent than the Evangelists indicate. The Pharisees and many other Jews believed that the mills of God ground slowly; if divine nemesis could wait fifteen years before Pompey for violating the sanctity of the holies of holies in Jerusalem [here Bruce notes Psalms of Solomon 2:30f.), it is not extraordinary that it would have waited a mere seven years before taking vengeance for the death of John.

What I find interesting about this disagreement is that, in their opposition over whether to take the notice of time in Luke 3:1-3 as accurate, the lines of discussion represented by Taylor and Bruce nonetheless accept it as the terminus post quem. That seems to me odd, because that same reference to the fifteen year of Tiberius is also taken as the standard point of departure for Jesus’ public activity. Luke is evidently compressing, and the compression extends to conflating John and Jesus. What if we were to entertain the possibility of a Josephan chronology for John, and dispense with the Synoptic chronology?​

Psalms of Solomon 2 (“Concerning Jerusalem”) is usually taken to refer to the siege of Jerusalem by Pompey in 63 BC. The psalm begins:

When the sinner became proud, he struck down fortified walls
with a battering-ram,
and you [God] did not prevent him.
Foreign nations went up to your altar;
in pride they trampled it with their sandals,
because the sons of Ierousalem had defiled the sanctuary of the Lord,
had profaned the gifts of God with acts of lawlessness.

In particular, this particular psalm can be dated after 48 BC, since it refers to Pompey’s assassination in that year (2.22-30).

And I saw and entreated the face of the Lord and said:
Long enough, Lord, has your hand been heavy on Ierousalem
in bringing the nations upon her.
For they mocked and spared not, in wrath and fierce anger,
and they will be brought to an end,
unless you, Lord,
rebuke them in your wrath.
For it was not out of zeal that they acted,
but out of the desire of the soul,
so as to pour out their wrath upon us in plunder.
Do not delay, O God, to repay them on their heads,
to declare in dishonor the arrogance of the dragon.
And I did not wait long until God showed me his insolence,
pierced, on the mountains of Egypt,
more than the least despised on land and sea.

His body, carried about on the waves in great insolence,
and there was no one to bury,
for he had rejected him in dishonor.
He did not consider that he was a human,
Nor did he consider the hereafter.
He said, “I will be lord of earth and sea,”
And he did not recognize that God is great,
Mighty in his great strength.
He is king over the heavens,
also judging kings and authorities.
It is he who raises me up to glory
and puts the arrogant to sleep for
everlasting destruction in dishonor,
because they did not know him.

Note the words “He did not delay long.” Apparently, for the author of this psalm, the period of fifteen years between the siege and the death of Pompey isn’t too long a wait. I might also note for comparison the early Christian idea that the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70 was divine retribution for Jesus’ death around forty years earlier. In comparison to these two examples, supposed divine vindication for John’s execution actually came pretty swiftly.**
 
Previous arguments for a late crucifixion noted.

Hagan cites the death of Antipas’ brother Herod Philip in early A.D. 34, as the trigger reason for the invasion of Nabotea- and it wasn’t just a skirmash, but a full scale invasion.

Tiberius did not automatically give Philip’s kingdom over to Antipas. Antipas was stunned and Herodias was furious (according to Hagan). Herodias’ daughter had married the old Philip, and also had some sort of claim to the rich kingdom. But Tiberius laid up the land and put the money it generated in some sort of trust.

Which means that the marriage of Antipas to Herodias occurred earlier- Hagan suggests late A.D. 32, with Salome marrying Philip not long after.

According to the gospels, Salome danced provocatively for Antipas and his men, and this led to execution of JB. This was an act hardly befitting a widowed Queen, but if it occurred in early A.D. 35, as Hagan suggests, a full year would have passed- a year of mourning.
 
Previous arguments for a late crucifixion noted.

Hagan cites the death of Antipas’ brother Herod Philip in early A.D. 34, as the trigger reason for the invasion of Nabotea- and it wasn’t just a skirmash, but a full scale invasion.

Tiberius did not automatically give Philip’s kingdom over to Antipas. Antipas was stunned and Herodias was furious (according to Hagan). Herodias’ daughter had married the old Philip, and also had some sort of claim to the rich kingdom. But Tiberius laid up the land and put the money it generated in some sort of trust.

Which means that the marriage of Antipas to Herodias occurred earlier- Hagan suggests late A.D. 32, with Salome marrying Philip not long after.

According to the gospels, Salome danced provocatively for Antipas and his men, and this led to execution of JB. This was an act hardly befitting a widowed Queen, but if it occurred in early A.D. 35, as Hagan suggests, a full year would have passed- a year of mourning.
That’s a nice speculation but to me still doesn’t really answer the question why JB’s death have to be placed somewhere between that time period (AD 34-37) other than that’s because where Josephus inserted his flashback.

And, this is a minor detail but I’ll repeat what I said in another thread:

Matthew and Mark are the only two gospels who record John’s beheading, and they don’t name the daughter. (Surprise surprise!) In fact, it’s quite unclear - just going by those gospels - whose daughter the girl is. The 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament (NA27) has “the daughter of Herodias” (ἡ θυγάτηρ τῆς Ἡρῳδιάδος) in Matthew 14:6, but has “his [Herod’s] daughter Herodias” (τῆς θυγατρὸς αὐτοῦ Ἡρῳδιάδος) in Mark 6:22, which would suggest that ‘Herodias’ is supposed to be the name of the daughter or that Herod had a daughter named Herodias.

The reading “his daughter Herodias” only appears in a few manuscripts like Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, or Bezae but in support of the reading is the fact that some of these are the earliest witnesses to the complete text of Mark. Plus, there’s also the fact that this is the harder reading, which, under the principle of lectio difficilior (the difficult reading is more likely to be original), takes it under consideration. Well, to put it simply, since “his daughter Herodias” can be read as contradicting Matthew 14:6, most other manuscripts have the harmonized reading “the daughter of Herodias herself” (τῆς θυγατρὸς αὐτῆς τῆς Ἡρῳδιάδος) or “the daughter of Herodias” (τῆς θυγατρὸς τῆς Ἡρῳδιάδος). Most translations to my knowledge also follow suit and simply gloss over the textual variant by adopting a similar reading.

And since we’re talking about this issue, I’ll let you in on something. The whole “dance of the seven veils” thing comes from Oscar Wilde. The text doesn’t suggest anything about the daughter’s dance being a sort of ancient striptease or some such. Showing ‘Salome’ as a seductive young woman is popular in Hollywood epics (King of Kings and Greatest Story) because it allows filmmakers to insert some sex appeal into a ‘holy’ story. Now Pasolini’s film Il Vangelo secondo Matteo is I think the only one which intentionally avoids portraying the dance in such a way - in fact, Herodias’ daughter in that film is a non-sexualized teenage girl. The irony is that this sort of portrayal is perhaps more accurate to the gospel text.

And I think that’s the key. Even if we grant that the unnamed daughter is indeed Josephus’ Salome, there is no indication in the gospels whatsoever about the nature of the dance or even how old the daughter is. Leaving aside any preconceived notions about the ‘Dance of the Seven Veils’ for a moment, for all we know the daughter could have simply been a young girl whose (unlascivious) dance amused Antipas. Either reconstruction is likely because the text doesn’t go into further detail.

Also, why automatically assume that the gospels are correct? As you said, we’re not doing theology here.
 
You are over-thinking this.

Herodias and her daughter were very famous people back then, as were Antipas and John the Baptist. JB was far more famous than Jesus was.

You have to give the original sources SOME credit for accuracy.

Resulting to language challenges is the lowest form of argument, IMO.

Remember that Antipas was removed from office when he, on Herodias’ urging, forced him to go to Rome to petition Caligula for Philip’s old kingdom. So I think Hagan on this is spot on.

Salome was the niece of Agrippa II, a good friend of Josephus’. He would not likely sully her name.
 
You are over-thinking this.

Herodias and her daughter were very famous people back then, as were Antipas and John the Baptist. JB was far more famous than Jesus was.
Ultimately though I would argue that looking at the wider picture, JB is just a blip in the radar. He may have been famous, but were it not for the gospels linking him with Jesus (who Himself only had a limited impact in His lifetime - it was after His death that things really kicked in), our perception of John would probably be the same as the other messianic and prophetic figures Josephus reports like Theudas or the unnamed Egyptian: men who attracted a lot of followers (“a great part of the people,” “thirty thousand men”/“four hundred [slain]…two hundred [taken] alive”) - at least before the authorities cracked down on their movements - but who is ultimately relegated to a footnote in the entire history of Roman-era Palestine. I doubt we would even be having this discussion if the early Christians did not connect him with Jesus.
Resulting to language challenges is the lowest form of argument, IMO.
On the contrary I think it’s a stronger form of argument than some of what I’ve already described on this thread, e.g. resorting to claims of phantom lettering on artifacts and latching onto the faintest similarity to prove that a ‘connection’ exists.

As you probably well know by now (and as I’ve been pointing out many times by now in other places), the text of the New Testament is riddled with textual variants, some of which you can’t just simply toss under the rug. The issue of the daughter in Mark’s gospel and its relationship with Matthew’s text is a particularly difficult reading which I think really should be put into consideration.

Oh, and you haven’t still answered some of the things I’ve put out. For instance what about Paul?

P.S. I note how Hagan claims to reject late sources, but in this particular case (at least going by your posts) he adopts the image of a dancing, femme fatale Salome, which is ultimately the product of later Christian imagination. On the one side, he might be forgiven because frankly this is also a mistake many other authors fall into, but on the other hand I wish he’d have been truer to his word.
 
When you start picking and choosing what you will and will not accept from an ancient source, especially the Gospels, you are de facto compromising whatever conclusions you might draw. A slippery slope. That Salome was somehow a factor in JB’s death is hard to discount.

That JB was tremendously popular is demonstrated by Antipas not executing him immediately, as certainly at least Herodias wanted. Antipas, a somewhat sympathetic character, was probably planning on releasing JB after his military operations concluded.Neither Jesus or Theudas or any of the others got that consideration. And there was a cult of John, as Acts suggests.

Hagan doesn’t comment on Gallius and Paul. Gallius sounds a lot like Gamaliel when Peter and John were arrested.

That he was consul of Achaea seems reasonable to assume in A.D. 52. How long he had been consul prior to that or after that is open to speculation. I haven’t researched it. Acts also said that the incident occurred before Paul left Corinth completely, so it could have occurred any time in the latter part of Paul’s 18 month stay in that corrupt city.

So there is a lot of leeway here time-wise.
 
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