Jesus' Birth

[searching59]

Just wondering, was it important for Jesus to be born at the exact time that he was? Would it have mattered if he was born, say, 20 years later? Was it God’s plan for him to be born at the time he was?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Just wondering, was it important for Jesus to be born at the exact time that he was? Would it have mattered if he was born, say, 20 years later? Was it God’s plan for him to be born at the time he was?

Yes, God chose that time from all eternity (cf. Galatians 4:4).

 

[searching59]

Also, was Mary the only person (besides Jesus) that was born without original sin and lived a sinless life?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Also, was Mary the only person (besides Jesus) that was born without original sin and lived a sinless life?

The only one we know about with certainty.

 

[marty1818]

Also, was Mary the only person (besides Jesus) that was born without original sin and lived a sinless life?

Not only was Mary born without original sin, but she was conceived without sin. While the Church does not officially teach it, some believe that St. John the Baptist may have been born without original sin.

jimmyakin.com/2004/12/john_the_baptis.html

 

[searching59]

The only one we know about with certainty.

So it’s possible that there were other women born and conceived without sin?

Also, what attributes, then, made Mary a candidate for bearing Jesus?

 

[JMJ_coder]

So it’s possible that there were other women born and conceived without sin?

Also, what attributes, then, made Mary a candidate for bearing Jesus?

It is highly unlikely, but not completely impossible that God could again chose to preserve a person from the stain of Original Sin. Why do you ask?

As to the Church’s teaching on Mary, refer to the Catechism paragraphs 484-511.

 

[searching59]

Well, only someone that was born sinless could bear Jesus right?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Well, only someone that was born sinless could bear Jesus right?

That is the Catholic teaching. Is this leading somewhere?

 

[searching59]

Ok, so if Jesus had to be born at that time, and only someone born without original sin could bear Jesus, then what would have happened if Mary had decided to say no to Gabriel when asked to bear Jesus?

Either God knew that she would say yes, or there were other women born sinless that could have born Jesus instead. Agreed?

 

[JMJ_coder]

Ok, so if Jesus had to be born at that time, and only someone born without original sin could bear Jesus, then what would have happened if Mary had decided to say no to Gabriel when asked to bear Jesus?

Either God knew that she would say yes, or there were other women born sinless that could have born Jesus instead. Agreed?

No, not agreed. I guess we’ll never know for sure what would have happened if she had said no just like we’ll never know for sure what would have happened if Adam and Eve had never sinned or if Lucifer and his cohorts had never fallen. She was certainly able to use her free will to say no to God, but she said yes, which is why she is so special.

 

[searching59]

No, not agreed. I guess we’ll never know for sure what would have happened if she had said no just like we’ll never know for sure what would have happened if Adam and Eve had never sinned or if Lucifer and his cohorts had never fallen. She was certainly able to use her free will to say no to God, but she said yes, which is why she is so special.

Then what are you disagreeing with? Nothing you’ve said disagrees with my post. While of course we will never know what would have happened if she’d said no, what other alternative would there have been? Based on the parameters you agreed to, there are none.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Then what are you disagreeing with? Nothing you’ve said disagrees with my post. While of course we will never know what would have happened if she’d said no, what other alternative would there have been? Based on the parameters you agreed to, there are none.

Because the possibilities you provided are not exhaustive. There are potentially infinite possibilities that we’ll never know about, but I think it is rather pointless to speculate on such things. To what does it profit?

 

[searching59]

Because the possibilities you provided are not exhaustive. There are potentially infinite possibilities that we’ll never know about, but I think it is rather pointless to speculate on such things. To what does it profit?

First of all, answer this: what other logical possibility is there? I didn’t provide an “exhaustive list” because the two I presented are the only two.

 

[JMJ_coder]

First of all, answer this: what other logical possibility is there? I didn’t provide an “exhaustive list” because the two I presented are the only two.

Another possible outcome is that Christ would not have been born. Again, what does playing the what if game benefit?

 

[searching59]

“Yes, God chose that time from all eternity (cf. Galatians 4:4).”

But if this is the only time that Jesus could have been born, then he could not have been born at a different time, therefore if not born then he would never have been born at all.

And since Jesus is the final step in salvation history, we would all be doomed to never enter Heaven.

So it goes back to the question… Either God knew ahead of time that Mary would say yes, or he had other women born sinless in addition to her in case she said no.

In which case, I posit that either God must’ve been forced to make all women in the world born at the same time of Mary conceived without sin to increase the chances of finding someone willing to bear his son, or she didn’t have the choice to say know because God already knew for certain what her answer would be.

That is the purpose of this.

 

[JMJ_coder]

“Yes, God chose that time from all eternity (cf. Galatians 4:4).”

But if this is the only time that Jesus could have been born, then he could not have been born at a different time, therefore if not born then he would never have been born at all.

And since Jesus is the final step in salvation history, we would all be doomed to never enter Heaven.

So it goes back to the question… Either God knew ahead of time that Mary would say yes, or he had other women born sinless in addition to her in case she said no.

In which case, I posit that either God must’ve been forced to make all women in the world born at the same time of Mary conceived without sin to increase the chances of finding someone willing to bear his son, or she didn’t have the choice to say know because God already knew for certain what her answer would be.

That is the purpose of this.

Or Jesus could have never been born and we would not have been redeemed. God doesn’t force anyone to do anything against their will…that would be to deprive someone of their free will and God will not do that.

 

[searching59]

You do have a valid point, which I did not think of before: Jesus could have never been born. It’s an interesting thought. But did not God promise a redeemer throughout the Old Testament, beginning with the Protoevangelium?

So we must accept that either the perfect, sinless God would have lied and doomed the world, or that God restricted Mary’s free will, or that there was more than option for the mother of God.

 

[Nita]

So it goes back to the question… Either God knew ahead of time that Mary would say yes, or he had other women born sinless in addition to her in case she said no.

God is omniscient - all knowing - so of course He knew Mary would say yes.
Therefore, no need to be concerned about any need for other women to be born free from original sin.

God did not restrict Mary’s free will. Knowing what someone will do is not the same thing as making or forcing them to do it.

 

[searching59]

God is omniscient - all knowing. So of course He knew what Mary’s response would be.

Yes, God is indeed upheld as “omniscient”. But as JMJ_coder conceded earlier, knowing the response would indeed be trespassing on her free will.

If God knew Mary’s response and prepared her, even before her birth, then what free will did she have? Assuming He is omniscient, then before Mary was even capable of thought, he marked her as saying yes. What free will does she have if her entire life, at the moment of conception, is already permanently set in one specific direction?

The answer, my dear friend, is none.

Edit:
This is indeed an age-old debate about the effect of the omniscience of God affecting people’s free will. But we’ve been given an interesting twist in that now the person in question is marked by God before she can think on her own.