N
Nita
Guest
Guess I edited my post while you were responding.
The answer “dear friend”
is in the second part of my post.
- Status
The answer “dear friend”
is in the second part of my post.
S
searching59
Guest
Yeah you did, I didn’t notice.
But anyway, do you have any further rebuttals against my contentions?
But anyway, do you have any further rebuttals against my contentions?
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
I never said nor implied that. If you got that impression from anything I said here, I am sorry, but such was not my intent.
S
searching59
Guest
This directly implies that you thought the option I presented would restrict free will. You further presented another option that wouldn’t violate the conditions set, again affirming that you noticed that one of the options presented would not work with the parameters given.
N
Nita
Guest
No rebuttals (since I think I responded to your contentions) – just a question. Why do you consider God’s omniscience equivalent to controlling the free will of humans?
S
searching59
Guest
In order for God to know the future, it necessitates that all of our actions are already set. While I don’t deny that we make the choices that are behind those actions, it is an illusion of free will, because regardless of what we choose independently, it has already been chosen for us.
Edit:
You keep editing your posts. I will get back to my contentions once I see where this is going.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
God knows each of us before we are even conceived (cf. Jer 1:5). We know that God is omniscient, he knows everything we are going to do before we do it (cf. Ps 139:4).
So, here is a logic argument.
- If God can neither deceive nor be deceived (Dei Filius, 3)
- And if God knows everything we do even before we do it (cf. Ps 139).
- If then God’s omniscience impedes or negates man’s free will then God would not deceive us by telling us we have a faculty that we really don’t have.
- But, God did reveal that we have full use of free will
- Therefore, God’s omniscience has no impact on our full use of our free will.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
No, it doesn’t imply that. I’m sorry if you were given that impression.
S
searching59
Guest
“No, it doesn’t imply that. I’m sorry if you were given that impression.”
Ok, I don’t really care enough to pursue this, but I would like to point out that you use the classical shift-of-blame technique with this sentence.
“So, here is a logic argument.
If God can neither deceive nor be deceived (Dei Filius, 3)
And if God knows everything we do even before we do it (cf. Ps 139).
If then God’s omniscience impedes or negates man’s free will then God would not deceive us by telling us we have a faculty that we really don’t have.
But, God did reveal that we have full use of free will
Therefore, God’s omniscience has no impact on our full use of our free will.”
Scripture proves time and time again that God is not omniscient and is very willing to deceive. But, let’s just assume that your premise is correct. You still don’t provide where God says we have free will. So your already flawed argument is even less valid.
Ok, I don’t really care enough to pursue this, but I would like to point out that you use the classical shift-of-blame technique with this sentence.
“So, here is a logic argument.
If God can neither deceive nor be deceived (Dei Filius, 3)
And if God knows everything we do even before we do it (cf. Ps 139).
If then God’s omniscience impedes or negates man’s free will then God would not deceive us by telling us we have a faculty that we really don’t have.
But, God did reveal that we have full use of free will
Therefore, God’s omniscience has no impact on our full use of our free will.”
Scripture proves time and time again that God is not omniscient and is very willing to deceive. But, let’s just assume that your premise is correct. You still don’t provide where God says we have free will. So your already flawed argument is even less valid.
N
Nita
Guest
There is no “future” for God. Everything that ever was, is, or will be is “now” for Him.
It’s our experience of it that is linear.
I know.
It’s a bad habit of mine.
M
mcrts
Guest
From the “Ask an Apologist forum”:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=28745
When he was an angel, Lucifer was perfect. He was sinless. But he chose to rebel against God, and that choice cost him and a third of the angels Heaven.
Adam and Eve were also created without sin, and they had the choice not to eat the fruit. But they chose to eat it, because they wanted to be better than God. From them, sin and suffering entered the world.
Mary was sinless from her conception and she had the choice to be the Mother of God. She did, and humanity was redeemed.
Absence of sin counts for nothing, if you do not have love. Free will counts for nothing, if you do not have obedience. By the example of her love and obedience, Mary has shown us the perfect way to God. If she had chosen otherwise, God would not have condemned her, as that is her choice. But her love and obedience proved greater forces than all the free will in the world.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=28745
When he was an angel, Lucifer was perfect. He was sinless. But he chose to rebel against God, and that choice cost him and a third of the angels Heaven.
Adam and Eve were also created without sin, and they had the choice not to eat the fruit. But they chose to eat it, because they wanted to be better than God. From them, sin and suffering entered the world.
Mary was sinless from her conception and she had the choice to be the Mother of God. She did, and humanity was redeemed.
Absence of sin counts for nothing, if you do not have love. Free will counts for nothing, if you do not have obedience. By the example of her love and obedience, Mary has shown us the perfect way to God. If she had chosen otherwise, God would not have condemned her, as that is her choice. But her love and obedience proved greater forces than all the free will in the world.
F
FCEGM
Guest
Keep in mind that this was a time of the “Pax Romana” - “the whole world being at peace”, as the Church’s Christmas Proclamation says. That peace would be shattered in Palestine 66 A.D. with the Fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. The place prepared for the Incarnation would soon enter into years, centuries of chaos. God chose the right time - of course.
S
searching59
Guest
First of all, this post is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. But I would like to point out that the idea of inherited sin (from Adam and Eve) is utterly ridiculous, and is biblically contradicted over and over. I will provide evidence if you want it.
Anyway… the idea that “free will counts for nothing, if you do not have obedience” is such an absurd statement that I’m not even sure how to respond. How do you have free will if when you make choices that go against God, you’re eternally punished for them?? That’s not free will, that’s enslavement. Sure, it’s your choice to go against the morals God presents, flawed as they might be. But then to ETERNALLY punish someone for it? By any standards, that’s excessively cruel, and shows once again that free will is but an illusion.
I’m appalled by how knowledgable you all seem on the Bible and yet you cannot make any inferences on your own, but instead allow the Church to guide you in all things. You are a perfect examples of people lacking free will.
Good day.
S
searching59
Guest
That interpretation changes nothing. Even you want to call it all “now” for God, it doesn’t change any of the statement I put forward.There is no “future” for God. Everything that ever was, is, or will be is “now” for Him.
It’s our experience of it that is linear.
I know.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
No it isn’t. You obviously read something into my replies that just isn’t there and I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.
Scripture does show God asking rhetorical questions and trying to elicit a response from people (e.g., Adam in Eden, Cain after he slew Abel, etc.), but it also makes it plain that God knows everything we do (cf. Ps 139, 1 John 3:19-20 among others).
For free will, refer to 1 Cor 10:13 among others. Also, Catholics do not rely solely on Sacred Scripture, but also equally Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. Free will is referenced in the Catechism at 1704, 1711, 1730-31.
That God cannot deceive is established in Dei Filius, 3 as well as the Catechism paragraph 157.
So again, having established both the omniscience of God (Ps 139 and 1 John 3:19-20), his inability to deceive (Dei Filius 3 and Catechism 157) and free will (1 Cor 10:13 and Catechism 1704,1711,1730-31):
God can not deceive
God is omniscient
If God’s omniscience impeded or negates man’s free will then God would not deceive us by tell us we have something we do not have.
God revealed that we have free will and full use of it.
Therefore, God’s omniscience has no impact on our free will.
S
searching59
Guest
Ugh it’s pretty clear from the context that that’s actually exactly what you meant, I understand that it may not be what you were trying to say but you were forced to admit it nonetheless.No it isn’t. You obviously read something into my replies that just isn’t there and I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH.
Scripture does show God asking rhetorical questions and trying to elicit a response from people (e.g., Adam in Eden, Cain after he slew Abel, etc.), but it also makes it plain that God knows everything we do (cf. Ps 139, 1 John 3:19-20 among others).
For free will, refer to 1 Cor 10:13 among others. Also, Catholics do not rely solely on Sacred Scripture, but also equally Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium. Free will is referenced in the Catechism at 1704, 1711, 1730-31.
That God cannot deceive is established in Dei Filius, 3 as well as the Catechism paragraph 157.
So again, having established both the omniscience of God (Ps 139 and 1 John 3:19-20), his inability to deceive (Dei Filius 3 and Catechism 157) and free will (1 Cor 10:13 and Catechism 1704,1711,1730-31):
God can not deceive
God is omniscient
If God’s omniscience impeded or negates man’s free will then God would not deceive us by tell us we have something we do not have.
God revealed that we have free will and full use of it.
Therefore, God’s omniscience has no impact on our free will.
Anyway, just because the Catechism says that God can’t deceive doesn’t make it true. I can provide plenty of scriptural evidence showing that he can and does…
So again, the proof is illogical.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
No, you jumped to conclusions and tried to imply something that wasn’t there.
For the sake of all here, let us recap:
You (P.1): Was it important for Jesus to be born when he was?
Me (P.2): That time was specifically chosen by God (cf. Gal 4:4).
You (P.3): Was Mary the only one born without Original Sin and lived a sinless life?
Me (P.4): She is the only one we know who was both born without Original Sin and lived a sinless life.
You (P.6): Could others then be born without Original Sin?
Me (P.7): Highly unlikely, but God could make such possible in another.
You (P.8): Only someone born sinless could bear Jesus?
Me (P.9): That is the Church’s teaching (cf. Catechism 490-494)
You (P.10): “Ok, so if Jesus had to be born at that time, and only someone born without original sin could bear Jesus, then what would have happened if Mary had decided to say no to Gabriel when asked to bear Jesus? Either God knew that she would say yes, or there were other women born sinless that could have born Jesus instead.”
That last one is where you go completely off the rails. It does not logically follow. Each Q&A in isolation is correct. But the conclusion you draw from it is as faulty as the collapsed building in Bangladesh. Here is why:
The first issue is that, as I warned you several times, it is pretty pointless and dangerous to speculate in such and to play the what if game.
The second issue is that uses a premise not previously admitted, which is that God had no alternative choice but to come to earth. This also leads to a jumped conclusion which is issues 3 and 4.
The third issue is that you jump to the conclusion that there must be hordes of woman just like Mary who were waiting in some sort of first come first serve queue. There is nothing to support this and it also leads to a whole host of other nonsensical speculations.
The fourth issue is an assumed mutually exclusive two option outcome, when in fact there is nothing presented to support either the mutually exclusivity or the two and only two outcomes.
As a helpful hint, next time get straight to your point and don’t play 20 questions.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
This and other of you posts makes me ask – your post says that you are a Catholic. Are you a Catholic? If no, of what faith, if any, are you? If yes, do you hold all the Church teaches, or do you prefer to dine in the cafeteria? I think it is important to understand where we are coming from, so at the very least we don’t talk past one another or assume someone has knowledge or experience of things that they may not have.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
No, the argument is perfectly logical, as in the conclusion logically follows from the premises and the logical use thereof. What you seem to have an issue with are the premises. There are 4 premises in the argument:
- God can not deceive
- God is omniscient
- Man has use of free will
- God has revealed that man has use of free will
H
hsmomforlife
Guest
Ok, this is not a perfect comparison but…
I can ‘know’ that my husband will want a really big squirt of mustard on the bottom bun of his burger that he will like topped with melted colby jack cheese and grilled onions…he’s liked his burgers that way for all of the 25 years that we have been grilling together…it doesn’t mean that he can’t say 'y’know, hon, I think I’d like jalepeno cheddar on my burger tonight…" He can always freely choose that.
My knowing (while not omniscient like God) doesn’t remove my husband’s ability to choose something different on his burger.
You are constraining God within your time limits…He exists outside of time, since he created time. So when he 'knows" that someone will do something a certain way, it’s not because he thought about it before it happened and then forced the person to do it ‘his way’. It’s because time doesn’t constrain Him and He sees everything and knows how it all turns out. He knows Mary’s heart and soul and knows that she will say ‘yes’ to his asking.
- Status