Jesus' brethren and Mary's Virginity

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billroll:
After Mary gave birth to Jesus she DID have sexual relations with Joesph and gave birth to at least 6 other children. The half brothers are named in the Bible and His sisters, at least two, are just mentioned as “sisters.” The Catholic church has tried to cover this up by trying to confuse their members but the “original Greek” language in the Bible is specific and leaves no doubt. The Bible is God-breathed and without errror!
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You just go right ahead and prove all that since it’s your allegation.
 
it’s not an allegation, it’s in the Bible. Catholics don’t like it because it means that Mary would have had to have sexual relations.
 
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billroll:
After Mary gave birth to Jesus she DID have sexual relations with Joesph and gave birth to at least 6 other children. The half brothers are named in the Bible and His sisters, at least two, are just mentioned as “sisters.” The Catholic church has tried to cover this up by trying to confuse their members but the “original Greek” language in the Bible is specific and leaves no doubt. The Bible is God-breathed and without errror!
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Oh, I’m dying to hear this one…This is in the :rolleyes: gospel according to… whom:confused: :confused: ? Not Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John!!
A new gospel? One I :nope: don’t know about???
 
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cynic:
it’s not an allegation, it’s in the Bible. Catholics don’t like it because it means that Mary would have had to have sexual relations.
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:rolleyes: As I say…these :cool: new-fangled Bibles…:rolleyes: amazing!!
 
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cynic:
it’s not an allegation, it’s in the Bible. Catholics don’t like it because it means that Mary would have had to have sexual relations.
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Yeah right…prove it…
 
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cynic:
Mathew 13:55
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55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude:

55 “His brethren”… These were the children of Mary the wife of Cleophas, sister to our Blessed Lady, (St. Matt. 27: 56; St. John 19: 25,) and therefore, according to the usual style of the Scripture, they were called brethren, that is, near relations to our Saviour. note from my Bible…
Mark 6:3
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Same as above…
Epistle to the Galations 1:19
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Again…same
Keep tryin’…
 
That isn’t explicitely stated, that’s your interpretion

“Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene”

“Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children”

Which Mary is which here?
 
OK, about the Matthew passage?? Chapter 13, verse 55??

It starts out, “Is not this the carpenter’s son?”…

So, you don’t believe that Jesus was the Son of God?? He was just Joseph’s son???
 
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cynic:
That isn’t explicitely stated, that’s your interpretion

“Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene”

“Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children”

Which Mary is which here?
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Cleopas’ wife…but I shouldn’t have to tell you that.
*
“Brethren of the Lord”

When Catholics call Mary the “Blessed Virgin,” they mean she remained a virgin throughout her life. When Protestants refer to Mary as “virgin,” they mean she was a virgin only until Jesus’ birth. They believe that she and Joseph later had children whom Scripture refers to as “the brethren of the Lord.” The disagreement arises over biblical verses that use the terms “brethren,” “brother,” and “sister.”

There are about ten instances in the New Testament where “brothers” and “sisters” of the Lord are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).

When trying to understand these verses, note that the term “brother” (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for “sister” (adelphe) and the plural form “brothers” (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that “brother” had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as “fathers”) and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your “sons”), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The terms “brothers,” “brother,” and “sister” did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

No Word for Cousin

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”*

I don’t really think that you’ll read it, but the rest is HERE .
You must think you’re the first person since the reformation to try to teach this stuff… :rolleyes:
 
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cynic:
That isn’t explicitely stated, that’s your interpretion

“Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene”

“Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children”

Which Mary is which here?
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Neither is the Incarnation or the Trinity…yet you believe them dontcha?
 
One challenge a lot of folks have in accepting the perpetual virginity of Mary is their view of sex as merely a biological process and forgetting that sex for human beings is first and foremost a theological process. It was not uncommon for people in Christ’s day, even married people, to engage in prolonged periods of abstinence to better focus on their relationship with God. This kind of chaste relationship that Joseph had with Mary would not have been all that out of the ordinary in his day.
 
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cynic:
That isn’t explicitely stated, that’s your interpretion…
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No, dear, that’s the Church’s interpretation. Catholics recognize the authority of the Church, the one Christ established. All the early Christians recognized the perpetual virginity of Mary. If Christ had brothers he would not have given Mary over to John at the crucifixion.
 
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RCCDefender:
No, dear, that’s the Church’s interpretation. Catholics recognize the authority of the Church, the one Christ established. All the early Christians recognized the perpetual virginity of Mary. If Christ had brothers he would not have given Mary over to John at the crucifixion.
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It’s also interesting that, while Mary’s perpetual virginity has been upheld by Christians for 2,000 years–and was even defended by Luther and Calvin–denial of her perpetual virginity is a rather recent thing (kind of like protest-antism itself).
By the way, what part of protest-ant teaching does the doctrine of the perpetual virginity contradict??
 
Church Militant:
Cleopas’ wife…but I shouldn’t have to tell you that.

“Brethren of the Lord”

When Catholics call Mary the “Blessed Virgin,” they mean she remained a virgin throughout her life. When Protestants refer to Mary as “virgin,” they mean she was a virgin only until Jesus’ birth. They believe that she and Joseph later had children whom Scripture refers to as “the brethren of the Lord.” The disagreement arises over biblical verses that use the terms “brethren,” “brother,” and “sister.”

There are about ten instances in the New Testament where “brothers” and “sisters” of the Lord are mentioned (Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5).

When trying to understand these verses, note that the term “brother” (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for “sister” (adelphe) and the plural form “brothers” (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that “brother” had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as “fathers”) and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your “sons”), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The terms “brothers,” “brother,” and “sister” did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

No Word for Cousin

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning “cousin,” speakers of those languages could use either the word for “brother” or a circumlocution, such as “the son of my uncle.” But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used “brother.”

I don’t really think that you’ll read it, but the rest is HERE .
You must think you’re the first person since the reformation to try to teach this stuff… :rolleyes:
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at best it’s inconclusive either way, yet you talk as if it’s the ‘truth’ etc because it’s the Catholic position. Your Church teaches it because of it’s trinity dogma, some idea that Jesus’s immaculate conception was an equivalent to sex (just not with a mortal) an thus relations with Joseph afterwards would have been adulterous, aswell as the idea that one cannot be totally pure while having had sexual relations - the ideal of celibacy as the higher calling. You are welcome to believe these things, whether personally of because the Catholic Church asks that you do.
 
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cynic:
…Your Church teaches it because of it’s trinity dogma, some idea that Jesus’s immaculate conception was an equivalent to sex (just not with a mortal) an thus relations with Joseph afterwards would have been adulterous,…
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Just a FYI, Catholics believe that Mary was immaculately conceived and the “immaculate conception” is her conception free from original sin, that is “full of grace”

So the immaculate conception is Mary’s gift of grace for her saying “Yes” to God.

I wouldn’t want you to be misled by not knowing what Catholics really believe…
 
Cynic, I still have to ask you: If He had siblings, Why would Jesus entrust his mother to John instead of to his brothers and sisters? This would not have happened unless there were no family for Him to entrust her to.

Also, what’s the problem with Catholics believing Catholic teaching? Protestants rely on Catholic teaching for many things…
 
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