Jesus' Brothers and Sisters...

[Milliardo]

Someone in another board wrote concerning Matthew 13:54-56 reads in Greek to mean Jesus’ biological brothers and sisters (delphos in greek refers to biological brother and adelphe refers to biological sister. Those were the words used in the original greek manuscript. Both word had their root in delphus which means womb–what he wrote). What is the response to this assertion? For reference, here is the thread: forums.abs-cbn.com/index.php?showtopic=7931&st=40

 

[Chipper]

Milliardo:

Someone in another board wrote concerning Matthew 13:54-56 reads in Greek to mean Jesus’ biological brothers and sisters (delphos in greek refers to biological brother and adelphe refers to biological sister. Those were the words used in the original greek manuscript. Both word had their root in delphus which means womb–what he wrote). What is the response to this assertion? For reference, here is the thread:

I have one, short and simple response. If you take a look at Matthew 12:49,
Matthew 12:49
And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

This Greek word for brothers (everyone being his brother) is also based on the root delphos. So if it is strictly used for “Biological” brothers, then Jesus just called everyone his biological brother. Since this can’t be, then the root delphos also can’t be restricted to just “biological” brothers.

Chip

 

[Milliardo]

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Pax]

Also go to Acts 1:12-15 where it says:

“Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a sabbath day’s journey away; and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,”

The word used here is also adelphois. Now count them up. If we count the 11 apostles[no Judas] and the women say about twenty to play it safe, and Mary, we would have about 88 brothers of Jesus. This simply cannot be.

Since there was no Aramaic word for blood brother/sister the Jews used the English equivalent of brethren. When the gospel writers translated into greek they merely followed this convention. Clearly, from the use of adelphois in the NT we know that the meaning extends beyond siblings and includes broader familial and non-familial relationships.

 

[thessalonian]

Milliardo:

Someone in another board wrote concerning Matthew 13:54-56 reads in Greek to mean Jesus’ biological brothers and sisters (delphos in greek refers to biological brother and adelphe refers to biological sister. Those were the words used in the original greek manuscript. Both word had their root in delphus which means womb–what he wrote). What is the response to this assertion? For reference, here is the thread:

I don’t have time to look it up rigth now but if you go to google.com and do a search for Fr. Mateo you will find an article that he wrote. And in that article he gives greek examples in literature where it is obvious that adelphos is not “from the same womb”. Most certainly it can be but it does not half to be. None of the significant greek lexicons limit it to that either. You can also find Fr. Mateo’s article on this website I believe. Even in the new testament adelphe has a range of meaning that allows for kin and christian brethern.

It is important in the discussion on PV not to overstate your case and say you can prove from scripture that Mary did not have other children, or that those mentioned in Mark and Matt are cousins for certain. The Bible is somewhat neutral at least in an explicit sense. Implicitly of course there is much evidence that they will not consider.

Blessings

 

[Axion]

The words “brothers” and “sisters” in Aramaic and Hebrew - the languages of Israel and Judea, have a meaning that extends to all close kinsfolk.

While James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus’s brothers in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was ANOTHER Mary.

Matthew 27.55 There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; 56 among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee.

This other Mary is identified in John 19:25, where a literal translation of the original Greek states. “But by he cross of Jesus the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene.”
The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that there were three women called Mary here, and that **Mary the wife of Cleophas ** (called the Virgin Mary’s sister) is the same person as the mother of Joses and James.

Brother is used to mean kinsman in the old Testament too:

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s “brother” (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Aran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26-28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the “brother” of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15).

Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren,” the sons of Kish.
These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chron. 23:21-22).
The terms “brothers,” “brother,” and “sister” did not refer only to
close relatives, as in the above examples. Sometimes they meant kinsman (Deut. 23:7, Neh. 5:7, Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two “brethren” of King Azariah (2 Kings 10:13-14).

 

[Milliardo]

I’ll just put this in here, since I’m lazy in searching for the particualr thread around, hehe! Anyway, we all know Mary to be sinless; how then to respond to the charge being made that she is not by virtue of Romans 3:23?

 

[Milliardo]

Axion:

The words “brothers” and “sisters” in Aramaic and Hebrew - the languages of Israel and Judea, have a meaning that extends to all close kinsfolk.

While James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus’s brothers in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was ANOTHER Mary.

Matthew 27.55 There were also many women there, looking on from afar, who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him; 56 among whom were Mary Mag’dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee.

This other Mary is identified in John 19:25, where a literal translation of the original Greek states. “But by he cross of Jesus the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene.”
The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that there were three women called Mary here, and that **Mary the wife of Cleophas ** (called the Virgin Mary’s sister) is the same person as the mother of Joses and James.

His contention now is that the Mary in Matthew 27:56 is not the same Mary as Matthew 13:55 since Zebedee is not a carpenter. How to reply to this

 

[thistle]

I understand that the Western Church accepts the tradion that the brothers and sisters of Jesus are from the extended family whereas the Eastern Church accepts the tradition that they were step brothers and sisters, i.e. Jospeh was a widower when he married Mary and had children from his first marriage. Neither contradicts the perpertual virginity of Mary.
However, Matthew 1:24-25 might cast doubt on this.
“When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus”.

 

[gus]

Read Jeromes apology paragraph 4
newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

 

[thistle]

gus:

Read Jeromes apology paragraph 4
newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

In para. 4 it says “we shall adduce the actual words of scripture” but the actual words of scripture state:
“When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus”.
Using the word “until” implies they had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

 

[gus]

So if i say he never drank until he died
It means he drank afer he died?
Jerome is pointing out how phrases
could have more than one meaning.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Milliardo:

I’ll just put this in here, since I’m lazy in searching for the particualr thread around, hehe! Anyway, we all know Mary to be sinless; how then to respond to the charge being made that she is not by virtue of Romans 3:23?

Basically, this way:

Romans 3:23
"all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. "

All does not mean every single one (see below)
Jesus did not sin.
Infants who died never sinned.

In Romans Chapter 3 (esp. v 10-11)(if your bible has references), Paul makes reference to psalm 14 or psalm 53 in which a distinction is made between the wicked and righteous. So Paul did not mean for the word all (pantes in Greek) to be meant as every single person, but only the wicked.
We see that in Romans 5:12, all cannot mean every single one because Elijah and Enoch were exceptions (same Greek word used here as well). Same as 1 Cor 15:22. All does not mean every single one because Enoch and Elijah are also exceptions to all who have died.

 

[johnshelby]

there is another thought about this… there is no
aramaic word for cousin… or hebrew word, so
brother was used a lot, rather than explaining
the ‘son of my fathers brother’ relationship…

plus…

remember when Jesus brothers came to Him and
told Him that He should return home? john 7:3-4
and the time they went out to seize Him cause
they thought He was ‘beside’ Himself? mark 3:21

if they were younger brothers, this would have been very,
very, disrespectful of them… in Jewish society, younger
brothers did not often offer advise to older siblings… Jesus would
have been the first born, we all agree on that… so, any
true brothers he might have had, would have had to be
younger brothers…

 

[Brendan]

thistle:

In para. 4 it says “we shall adduce the actual words of scripture” but the actual words of scripture state:
“When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took his wife into his home. He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus”.
Using the word “until” implies they had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus.

2Samuel, 7:23,

Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child until the day of her death

.

So Michal had a child after she died?

Matt. 28:29 -

Lo, I am with you until the end of the world

After the end of the world, Christ will leave us??

Luke 2: 36-37

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, and then was a widow until she was eighty-four

So Anna’s husband was resurrected when she was 84, and thus no longer a widow?

.

 

[Malachi4U]

Aramaic which Jesus spoke in had no word for sibling. They did have a word for kinship. So when Jesus said He had brothers it could have meant half-brothers, cousins or just all us brothers as sons of God. To mean a sibling then Jesus would have had to say this is James, son of Joseph and Blessed Mary, my kin. Since it is not said this way in Greek then it was not said that way in Aramaic.

Just because the Greek has a word for something does not mean the Aramaic does. Look at our own language and talk to interpreters. It is hard to use the word correctly if you just copy word for word. Sometimes you have to change words to get the correct meaning across. Look at JFK speaking in Berlin back in the early 60’s. President Kennedy said “Ich ben eina Berliner.” (sp?) He was trying to show he was with the Berliners’ in their pain during difficult times. I was told that what he actually said if translated correctly was “I am a Bagel”.

Before I go though, here is a parable not found in the Bible, "Jesus is walking down the market street with His “five siblings”. They see a bar and go into it to spread the ‘word’. He speaks out, “Hi, my name is Jesus. I am the Son of God. I was born a virgin birth and my mother had NO relations with the man she was living with at the time till my birth, her fiancée Joseph, to whom she is now married and HAS had relations with that have brought fourth my three brothers and my two sisters. I am God. Believe in me. I was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and not by my step dad Joseph. Jesus was then laughed out of the bar with His 2 ‘siblings’.”

OK, it’s just a story to make a point. How ridiculous does it sounds for Jesus to go proclaiming His virgin birth with His siblings along side Him. The first recorded loss of followers was in John 6 when Jesus tells us to eat His flesh. Many Protestants still cannot accept the truth in Jesus’ words today and have left the Catholic Church as a result! I would think He would have lost followers sooner if this sibling stuff was ever brought up in Scripture, but it wasn’t, because He had no siblings.

Protestants invented the siblings of Christ in the 1850’s in response to the Catholics proclaiming Blessed Mary ever virgin. Try to find any instances of siblings being taught by ANY religion prior to the 1850’s or even the reformation. In fact, you will see Jesus has always been thought of as an only child. Protestant often invent lies to counter Marian teachings in the Church. Just get used to it.

This subject is explained very well on another thread by they way.

JMJ

 

[Brendan]

And here is yet another example

Gal 1:18-19 shows a great example of how the term “Brethren” is used.

Quote:

Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days - But other of the Apostles, I saw none, except for James, the brother of the Lord

Now there were 2 Apostels named James,

James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alphaeus.

James, son of Zebedee, was beheaded in AD 44, so the only James Paul could have met was James son of Alphaeus.

That James is called the 'Brother of the Lord". Did Paul somehow think that Mary commited adultery with Alphaeus?

 

[mark_a]

Brendan:

And here is yet another example

Gal 1:18-19 shows a great example of how the term “Brethren” is used.

Quote:

Now there were 2 Apostels named James,

James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alphaeus.

James, son of Zebedee, was beheaded in AD 44, so the only James Paul could have met was James son of Alphaeus.

That James is called the 'Brother of the Lord". Did Paul somehow think that Mary commited adultery with Alphaeus?

 

[mark_a]

I have a friend from West Africa who still uses the term “brother” when speaking about his cousin. He also uses “son” when he speaks about one of his nephews.

Just thought I’d throw that in there.

 

[thistle]

2Samuel, 7:23,
.

So Michal had a child after she died?

Matt. 28:29 -

After the end of the world, Christ will leave us??

Luke 2: 36-37

So Anna’s husband was resurrected when she was 84, and thus no longer a widow?

.

Like I said earlier I believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity. I was only pointing out that the use of the word “until” could imply normal relations after Jesus was born. In the NAB notes on this point it says the use of the word “until” by Matthew does does mean they had normal marital relations after the birth of Jesus and nor does it exclude it. As this is a Catholic bible and the notes say it cannot be excluded then it implies doubt. Is it possible that the word “until” actually means something different in its original language before translation into English.