Jesus' Brothers

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So one of the 12, in the gospels, is referred to as “James the brother of Jesus” or are you talking about the Pauline epistles?

1 Corinthians 15:4-7 (New International Version)

4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[a] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to **more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles

It is obvious from this that there was a James that was not one of the 12.
500 brothers??? Obviously the Simitic understanding of brother, is very loose

The Greek word “brothers” in that passage

ἀδελφός *adelphos (same as Mt 13:55 previously referenced as well as many other references) *
**
can mean

definition:
1)
a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles
d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place
Mary gave birth to only one child…Jesus. That is de fide. But her spiritual children (sons and daughters) are all of us. 🙂
 
You know what I’m going to ask. 🙂

Matthew 13:55 - “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

I understand that the word ‘brothers’ can be used to mean cousins, or any relatives really. But it seems that the word ‘son’ and ‘mother’ is to be taken literally, so why then shouldn’t ‘brothers’?
Because there is no alternative for son and mother in Hebrew. Brother was the word used for all male relatives or even fellow tribesmen. For example read in Exodus where Abraham refers to his cousin Lot, Laban’s son, as his brother. You’ll find dozens of examples of this because ancient Semetic languages didn’t have word for each specific relative of each type.

As to James and Joses who were said to be Jesus brotheren, elsewere in Scripture it is pointed out that they are the sons of Mary, the wife of Cleopis, so they couldn’t have been Jesus’ uterine brothers since they had a different mother.
 
This argument is pretty horrible as well. If Aramaic doesn’t have separate words for brothers and cousins, but Greek does, why wouldn’t they just use the correct word in Greek? You are arguing that Matthew decided to use a literal translation despite this literal translation changing the meaning of the quote completely? Why would anyone do that?
First, the term o f adelfoi you must recognize the generality of the term. Compare please with the Book of Tobit, when just before their wedding he addresses his wife, Suzannah, with this very same term, adelfi mou, and it is absolutely clear from the whole story that they were only relatives and not at all of the first degree. Moreover, in the Songs of songs, the bridegroom addresses his bride with the appellative beautifully and it is from this context that much later Baudelaire, borrowed the same appellative, in one of the most beautiful love poem< Invitation au voyage> “Mon enfant, ma soeur, songe a la douceur d’aller vivre ensemble”… But back to the biblical context the universality of the term of adelfoi seems quite assumed, especially if we think that the bride addressed is the Queen of Saba, which was not even part of the family, being some kind of aethiopian (?) princess. Moreover, we deal here in the specified context, that is Matt. 13:55, we found ourselves in Nazareth, and probably Mary and Joseph had little relatives there, and they were quoted clearly with the intention to show the humble origin of the Lord.(according to the jewsh expectations Messiah should have come from a royal household in glory and power, this is the purpose of the mentioning of Mary and Joseph closest relatives). And lately st. Paul himself clarifies this very same thing when speaking about jackob always adding, the relative of the Lord, not his brother. I don’t have the exact quotation, but st. Paul was a Jewish so he cold exactly appreciate the property of the term.

When these brothers were born afterwards? The Scriptures say clearly that they ran away in Egipt and upon return they were three of them, Maryy Joseph and Jesus, and afterwards it mentions that by the 12 years the parents of Jesus went to Jerusalem and when jesus was 12 years old he went too together to jerusalem alone with his parents. It is at least strange for a “normal jewish family” and for such an old man as Joseph was, to wait so much time for having and conceiving other children especially that in the referred verses you so oftenly mention the brothers and sisters of Jesus appear to have quite the same age, if not even elders, otherwise how could a younger brother admonish Jesus , (who appears to be the elder from the Scriptures) on the occasion of the feast of pesah spent by all his brothers and sisters in Jerusalem. And if the Mother of God had so manny sons and daughters why our Lord did entrust her to the st. Apostle John and not to his own sons. especially that with the st. Apostle the Virgin was much more exposed to the jewish farisean persecution, as it si shown in the Facts than she would have been along with his close relatives, foir the fariseans followed jesus’ disciples. and not his relatives.
 
First, the term o f adelfoi you must recognize the generality of the term. Compare please with the Book of Tobit, when just before their wedding he addresses his wife, Suzannah, with this very same term, adelfi mou, and it is absolutely clear from the whole story that they were only relatives and not at all of the first degree. Moreover, in the Songs of songs, the bridegroom addresses his bride with the appellative beautifully and it is from this context that much later Baudelaire, borrowed the same appellative, in one of the most beautiful love poem< Invitation au voyage> “Mon enfant, ma soeur, songe a la douceur d’aller vivre ensemble”… But back to the biblical context the universality of the term of adelfoi seems quite assumed, especially if we think that the bride addressed is the Queen of Saba, which was not even part of the family, being some kind of aethiopian (?) princess. Moreover, we deal here in the specified context, that is Matt. 13:55, we found ourselves in Nazareth, and probably Mary and Joseph had little relatives there, and they were quoted clearly with the intention to show the humble origin of the Lord.(according to the jewsh expectations Messiah should have come from a royal household in glory and power, this is the purpose of the mentioning of Mary and Joseph closest relatives). And lately st. Paul himself clarifies this very same thing when speaking about jackob always adding, the relative of the Lord, not his brother. I don’t have the exact quotation, but st. Paul was a Jewish so he cold exactly appreciate the property of the term.

When these brothers were born afterwards? The Scriptures say clearly that they ran away in Egipt and upon return they were three of them, Maryy Joseph and Jesus, and afterwards it mentions that by the 12 years the parents of Jesus went to Jerusalem and when jesus was 12 years old he went too together to jerusalem alone with his parents. It is at least strange for a “normal jewish family” and for such an old man as Joseph was, to wait so much time for having and conceiving other children especially that in the referred verses the protestants so oftenly mention the brothers and sisters of Jesus appear to have quite the same age, if not even elders, otherwise how could a younger brother admonish Jesus , (who appears to be the elder from the Scriptures) on the occasion of the feast of pesah spent by all his brothers and sisters in Jerusalem. And if the Mother of God had so manny sons and daughters why our Lord did entrust her to the st. Apostle John and not to his own sons. especially that with the st. Apostle the Virgin was much more exposed to the jewish farisean persecution, as it si shown in the Facts than she would have been along with his close relatives, foir the fariseans followed jesus’ disciples. and not his relatives.
 
This argument is pretty horrible as well. If Aramaic doesn’t have separate words for brothers and cousins, but Greek does, why wouldn’t they just use the correct word in Greek? You are arguing that Matthew decided to use a literal translation despite this literal translation changing the meaning of the quote completely? Why would anyone do that?
First, the term o f adelfoi you must recognize the generality of the term. Compare please with the Book of Tobit, when just before their wedding he addresses his wife, Suzannah, with this very same term, adelfi mou, and it is absolutely clear from the whole story that they were only relatives and not at all of the first degree. Moreover, in the Songs of songs, the bridegroom addresses his bride with the appellative "beautifully " But back to the biblical context the universality of the term of adelfoi seems quite assumed, especially if we think that the bride addressed is the Queen of Saba, which was not even part of the family, being some kind of aethiopian (?) princess. Moreover, we deal here in the specified context, that is Matt. 13:55, we found ourselves in Nazareth, and probably Mary and Joseph had little relatives there, and they were quoted clearly with the intention to show the humble origin of the Lord.(according to the jewsh expectations Messiah should have come from a royal household in glory and power, this is the purpose of the mentioning of Mary and Joseph closest relatives). And lately st. Paul himself clarifies this very same thing when speaking about jackob always adding, the relative of the Lord, not his brother. I don’t have the exact quotation, but st. Paul was a Jewish so he cold exactly appreciate the property of the term.

When these brothers were born afterwards? The Scriptures say clearly that they ran away in Egipt and upon return they were three of them, Maryy Joseph and Jesus, and afterwards it mentions that by the 12 years the parents of Jesus went to Jerusalem and when jesus was 12 years old he went too together to jerusalem alone with his parents. It is at least strange for a “normal jewish family” and for such an old man as Joseph was, to wait so much time for having and conceiving other children especially that in the referred verses the protestants so oftenly mention the brothers and sisters of Jesus appear to have quite the same age, if not even elders, otherwise how could a younger brother admonish Jesus , (who appears to be the elder from the Scriptures) on the occasion of the feast of pesah spent by all his brothers and sisters in Jerusalem. And if the Mother of God had so manny sons and daughters why our Lord did entrust her to the st. Apostle John and not to his own sons. especially that with the st. Apostle the Virgin was much more exposed to the jewish farisean persecution, as it si shown in the Facts than she would have been along with his close relatives, foir the fariseans followed jesus’ disciples. and not his relatives.
 
I have never heard that Matthew was originally written in aramaic…and I am taking my last exam for a degree in religious studies (focusing on biblical studies) today.
Would you be so kind as to share what learning institution you are taking this final exam in? Either you are an incompetent student, or this is an incompetent institution, as to overlook so basic an instruction (and one so easily verified in Google, and every Gospel history resource I have ever read, whether authored by Catholics or protestants, such as F.F. Bruce). I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, and concluding that your instruction has been derelict, and would like to know who has been defrauding you of your tuition.
 
Would you be so kind as to share what learning institution you are taking this final exam in? Either you are an incompetent student, or this is an incompetent institution, as to overlook so basic an instruction (and one so easily verified in Google, and every Gospel history resource I have ever read, whether authored by Catholics or protestants, such as F.F. Bruce). I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt, and concluding that your instruction has been derelict, and would like to know who has been defrauding you of your tuition.
I don’t like to name names but at least one of my teachers is a very well renowned biblical scholar. I have never heard that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in aramaic.
 
I don’t like to name names but at least one of my teachers is a very well renowned biblical scholar. I have never heard that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in aramaic.
Have you studied the Early Christian Writings concerning the Bible?
 
I don’t like to name names but at least one of my teachers is a very well renowned biblical scholar. I have never heard that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in aramaic.
Do us a favor - ask this “renowned scholar” what language Matthew was originally written in (per the unanimous agreement of the Early Fathers).

If he tells you that it was Aramaic, then ask him why you are on the verge of graduating, and he never taught you this very basic and significant aspect of Biblical scholarship (nor did anyone else). Please tell us what excuse he gives in reply.

If he tells you it was Greek, also let us know. We are interested in what passes for “renowned Biblical scholarship” these days.

Another curiosity: In your various studies, have you EVER read the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Are you actually on the verge of graduating with a theology degree and know *nothing *of the Early Church?

FWIW, mid-April is a very strange time for an institute of higher learning to be administering final exams. Given your admitted lack of knowledge about the Gospels, and the unusual timing of your claim of final exams, I question the veracity of your claims regarding your educational status.
 
Do us a favor - ask this “renowned scholar” what language Matthew was originally written in (per the unanimous agreement of the Early Fathers).

If he tells you that it was Aramaic, then ask him why you are on the verge of graduating, and he never taught you this very basic and significant aspect of Biblical scholarship (nor did anyone else). Please tell us what excuse he gives in reply.

If he tells you it was Greek, also let us know. We are interested in what passes for “renowned Biblical scholarship” these days.

Another curiosity: In your various studies, have you EVER read the writings of the Early Church Fathers? Are you actually on the verge of graduating with a theology degree and know nothing of the Early Church?

FWIW, mid-April is a very strange time for an institute of higher learning to be administering final exams. Given your admitted lack of knowledge about the Gospels, and the unusual timing of your claim of final exams, I question the veracity of your claims regarding your educational status.
I am graduating with a religious studies degree, not a theology degree. It is quite different. It is more of an objective look at religion as opposed to learning the ins and outs of one religion. Also, I have never heard that Matthew was originally written in hebrew, and just because the church fathers said something doesn’t make it true. Augustine proposed that Matthew was the first written gospel but most scholars today believe it was Mark.

Also, I don’t go to school in America where they usually end school in May.
 
This is from the wikipedia…It isn’t the greatest source, but from what I have heard I don’t doubt this is true:

Many scholars today believe that “canonical Matt was originally written in Greek by a non eyewitness whose name is unknown to us and who depended on sources like Mark and Q”

I don’t know about the existence of Q and I think it might be more likely luke probably wrote using mark and matthew.
 
Have you ever supposed that it was a different James?
Absolutely, positively **CAN NOT ** be a different James. Paul in Galatians 1:19 says:

“But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.” [Gal 1:19]

Here Paul identifies James, the brother of the Lord as an Apostle. Two Apostles were named James. One is the brother of the Apostle John and they were the sons of Zebedee. See Matthew 10:2. The other Apostle James was the son of Alphaeus. See Matthew 10:3. Neither was a sibling brother of Jesus. Tradition has it that Alphaeus was the brother of Joseph which would make James the cousin of Jesus. In first century Israel families were clannish in which all males were considered brothers whether they were siblings or not.
 
I don’t like to name names but at least one of my teachers is a very well renowned biblical scholar. I have never heard that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in aramaic.
We, of course do not have the original Gospel of Matthew but we do have an early bishop of the Church in Caesarea named Eusebius who wrote an early work entitled Church History in about 312 AD. In chapter 14 verse 6 He makes this statement:

“6. For Matthew, who had at first preached to the Hebrews, when he was about to go to other peoples, committed his Gospel to writing in his native tongue and thus
compensated those whom he was obliged to leave for the loss of his presence.”

See ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.viii.xxiv.html

The footnotes go on to state the following:

“That Matthew wrote a gospel in Hebrew, although denied by many, is at present the prevailing opinion among scholars, and may be accepted as a fact both on account of its intrinsic probability and of the testimony of the Fathers, which begins with the statement of Papias, quoted by Eusebius in chap. 39, below, is confirmed by Irenæus (III. 1. 1, quoted below, V. 8, §2),—whether independently of Papias or not, we cannot say,—by Pantænus (but see below, Bk. V. chap. 10), by Origen (see below, VI. 25), by Jerome (de vir. ill. 3),—who says that a copy of it still existed in the library at Cæsarea,—and by Epiphanius (Hær. XXIX. 9). The question as to the relation of this Hebrew original to our present Greek Matthew is much more difficult. That our Greek Matthew is a mere translation of the original Hebrew was once a prevailing theory, but is now completely abandoned. That Matthew himself wrote both is a common conservative position, but is denied by most critical scholars, many of whom deny him the composition even of the Hebrew original. Upon the theory that the original Hebrew Matthew was identical with the “Gospel according to the Hebrews,” see chap. 27, note 8. Upon the synoptic problem, see above, II. 15, note 4; and see the works mentioned there for a discussion of this original Matthew, and in addition the recent works by Gla, Original-Sprache des Matt. Evang., 1887, and Resch, Agrapha, Leipzig, 1889.
The very natural reason which Eusebius gives for the composition of Matthew’s Gospel—viz. that, when on the point of going to other nations, he committed it to writing, and thus compensated them for the loss of his presence—occurs in none of the earlier reports of the composition of the Gospel which we now possess. It was probably a fact which he took from common tradition, as he remarks in the previous sentence that tradition says “they undertook it from necessity.” and thus
153compensated those whom he was obliged to leave for the loss of his presence.”

I find it very interesting that as late as 400 AD Jerome says the original Hebrew manuscript was still in existence at Caesarea.
 
Not really.
I would highly recomend looking over their writings and homilies on various Scripture passages. They were the those, who learned from those, who learned from the apostles and writers of the Scriptures. They were closest to the original writings, and some like St. Jerome may have had access to some of the Originals.
 
I would highly recomend looking over their writings and homilies on various Scripture passages. They were the those, who learned from those, who learned from the apostles and writers of the Scriptures. They were closest to the original writings, and some like St. Jerome may have had access to some of the Originals.
I have on Christian teaching. I will probably read it now that I am done with school.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellopeople
I don’t like to name names but at least one of my teachers is a very well renowned biblical scholar. I have never heard that the gospel of Matthew was originally written in aramaic.
I would imagine that is the same “renowned Biblical Scholar” who told you that Jesus absolutely had siblings who were the birth children of Mary. . . .
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6469721&postcount=8
I’m willing to bet that the “very well renowned biblical scholar” is not a “very well renowned biblical scholar.” At least not outside of his denomination.
 
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