M
Montrose
Guest
They HEARD God. They did not see him.
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pohandes
Guest
It is not about seeing him. It is about physical presence of God.
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.” Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Gen 32:24-30
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Vico
Guest
Thank you. I see that it is about presence. Face to face is an idiom that is used for intimately. The belief was that one could not literally see God and live.
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pohandes
Guest
But Jacob frankly said “I saw God”
M
Montrose
Guest
You are wrong again. It was an angel, not God.
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Ver. 24. A man, &c. This was an angel in human shape, as we learn from Osee xii. 4. He is called God, ver. 28 and 30, because he represented the person of the Son of God. This wrestling, in which Jacob, assisted by God, was a match for an angel, was so ordered, (Ver. 28.) that he might learn by this experiment of the divine assistance, that neither Esau, nor any other man, should have power to hurt him. It was also spiritual, as appeareth by his earnest prayer, urging, and at last obtaining the angel’s blessing. (Challoner) — The father will not refuse a good gift to those who ask him with fervour and humility. Jacob had before set us an excellent pattern how to pray, placing his confidence in God, and distrusting himself, ver. 9, &c. (Haydock) — It is not certain, whether Jacob remained alone on the northern or on the southern banks of Jaboc. (Calmet)
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pohandes
Guest
He asked for an example in Bible, not in the commentaries. Anyway in the Bible, many verses point that some people saw the God.
And I must say again: It is about God’s physical presence.
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Vico
Guest
Yes using the idiom face to face (for intimately), yet the scriptures does indicate surprise in a way, because further states “and yet my life was spared”.
If it is so, then it contradict the words of Jesus in Gospel of John1:18.
Exodus 33:20 And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Of course the Old Testament is redacted oral tradition and has inconsistencies. (There is a theory of the three sources.)
M
Montrose
Guest
That is a commentary on those verses in the Bible. God was not physically present in the example you gave.
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pohandes
Guest
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D
Dovekin
Guest
Why do you ask?
In context, it means that from the Annunciation the Son of God is present in his body and soul during his life before the Crucifixion. In intent, it means the same as The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (Jn 1)
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pohandes
Guest
I ask to know.
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kapp19
Guest
That is far from clear - and the inconsistency must be clearly rhetorical, and not real, of course…
The issue of theophany is highly complex… “seeing God” is said in many ways…
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annad347
Guest
Not parts, but persons…
Your Catechism of the Catholic Church describes them as 3 divine persons. 254
How do you describe The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit?
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JGD
Guest
God the Father, did not unite His Divine nature with a human nature into His individual First Person of the Trinity (as Jesus did - a hypostatic union). The same applies to the Holy Spirit.JGD:
Not true. Read Luke 3:22
Some Catechism quotes:
CCC 466 Christ’s humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God,
CCC 467 The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person ( prosopon ) and one hypostasis.
CCC 468 “there is but one hypostasis [or person], which is our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Trinity.”
Regarding Luke 3:22 (and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.”)
That verse merely shows some of the capabilities of the Divine nature of our Triune God.
It shows God the Father in His Divine nature can make Himself audibly heard by a human/s without in anyway uniting a human nature to His Divine Person.
And likewise the dove shows that the Divine nature of God the Holy Spirit can make Himself visibly present to human eyes in the form of a dove without having to become one - that is, to unite the physical nature of a dove to His Divine Person.
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kapp19
Guest
As Persons… Whos… not Whats… Three Whos, One What.
I know that’s probably unsatisfying. I am happy to explain at length - though it becomes quite complex once on moves past the psychological analogy and its variants (the mind loving itself - there is the mind, the word or concept by which it understands itself, and the object of love impelling the loving motion toward itself… there you have something like what is “going on inside” of God).
-K
I know that’s probably unsatisfying. I am happy to explain at length - though it becomes quite complex once on moves past the psychological analogy and its variants (the mind loving itself - there is the mind, the word or concept by which it understands itself, and the object of love impelling the loving motion toward itself… there you have something like what is “going on inside” of God).
-K
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annad347
Guest
You are stil not answering the actual question though just explaining the 3 persons of God.
My question is… All 3 are God. Equal in all ways. One God.
Then why would some people say that to have the physical presence is not the same as having the spiritual presence or that some place have both the physical and spiritual presence? Why would they say that if it does not mean to have one or two persons of God is have more or less of God?
The Trinity explains the 3 persons of 1 God
The Incarnation explains the Son of God, in becoming a human being.
The Eucharist is the physical presence of Jesus Christ. Bread and win becoming His body and blood.
Understanding that doesnt really answer my question.
My question is… All 3 are God. Equal in all ways. One God.
Then why would some people say that to have the physical presence is not the same as having the spiritual presence or that some place have both the physical and spiritual presence? Why would they say that if it does not mean to have one or two persons of God is have more or less of God?
The Trinity explains the 3 persons of 1 God
The Incarnation explains the Son of God, in becoming a human being.
The Eucharist is the physical presence of Jesus Christ. Bread and win becoming His body and blood.
Understanding that doesnt really answer my question.
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kapp19
Guest
The difference comes down to the distinction between presence and operation. God is always everywhere - but He does certain things at certain times which makes His presence to be perceived in a different way.
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phil19034
Guest
I’m going to use an imperfect analogy, based on 21st century technology.phil19034:
It seems inconsistent. More clear please.
If you are using Apple FaceTime, Skype, etc to video chat with your parents, they are not PHYSICALLY with you. You could say they are virtually or perhaps even “spiritually” present, but they are not physically with you.
You cannot give them a hug or kiss over video chat. You can talk to them, you can feel their love, etc.; but you cannot physically touch them.
The same is with God. We cannot physically touch the Holy Spirit (at least not without a miracle). We can sense His presence, we can feel His love, we can even hear Him. But we cannot physically touch The Holy Spirit.
However, we can physically touch Jesus Christ when He appears to us in the appearance of Bread & Wine. We can physically feel His flesh on our tongues, because while the Host still looks like bread, the substance has been literally & physically been changed into the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ.
We Catholic do not believe this is symbolic, we believe it is literally transubstantiated into Jesus Christ’s physical Body.
I hope this is a little more clear.
God Bless
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pohandes
Guest
According to the Holy Bible, Holy Spirit had a physical appearance (Luke 3:22) but as you said we can’t touch the Holy Spirit.
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phil19034
Guest
Yes, that was one of the miracles I was implying when I said “at least not without a miracle”phil19034:
According to the Holy Bible, Holy Spirit had a physical appearance (Luke 3:22) but as you said we can’t touch the Holy Spirit.
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