Jesus Christ is God

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BrunoMaria said:
Yours „End of story" on previous page sounds not just aggressive, but presumptuous too. Such aggressive replies we as Christians, as love is foundation of Christianity must avoid expressions that sound like „I am right, and you better shut up“.

In fact - though you claim your expression „a God“ does not contradict all Christian’s doctrine about Jesus Christ. It does! It even does strongly so, which any Priest will confirm to you - if you dare to ask one.

Several here tried to explain to you kindly, that obvious rules of language always indicate that „a“ is one out of many. A three - a human - a cloud. You’d never say „a earth“ as there is but one earth, or „a USA“ as there are not more or even many USA’s.

Take a very profane explanation of a picture - like a garden. There you see the picture of a tree, that of a fence and that of a child on the lawn. All 3 or even more pictures painted in high skill and assembled in that one piece of art. You couldn’t say the tree is a picture - the child is a picture - the fence is a picture, as it’s but one picture.

„A“ (in German „ein“) is a vague and indefinite article for one out of some or even many. It’s insofar even dangerous to speak of „a God“ - for doubters and disbelievers don’t really know or don’t believe in the Holy Trinity, and mistake it for one out of many. The rule of grammar clearly p(name removed by moderator)oints: “A” is one of the lot.
Ask any other Christian, ask any Priest or look at the creed:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/credo.htm
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God
It doesn’t say a God from God……
ABSOLUTE SINGULARITY!

Yours
Bruno
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Hmmm.

I am a Man.
If I was the only man left on earth I would still be a Man not Man.
The above disproves your theory on the english language
Jesus Is a God, The Holy Spirit is A God, The Son Is a God,

A does not always signify many, it can signify a small amount, or 1.

If their is one God, and I say their is a God, I have not committed a violation.

The Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to The Father. However all are the same God in 3 beings.

(A God and A God are obedient To A God. However all are the Same God in 3 beings)

Peace.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
This means he was with the Father, but he is not actually the same as the father.
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No, Jesus, is not the same person as the Father who is the First Person in the Holy Trinity. Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. We know that Jesus is God.
“In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
And the Word was God…” John Chapter 1
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Hmmm.

I am a Man.
If I was the only man left on earth I would still be a Man not Man.
The above disproves your theory on the english language
Jesus Is a God, The Holy Spirit is A God, The Son Is a God,

A does not always signify many, it can signify a small amount, or 1.

If their is one God, and I say their is a God, I have not committed a violation.

The Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to The Father. However all are the same God in 3 beings.

(A God and A God are obedient To A God. However all are the Same God in 3 beings)

Peace.
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It is not correct to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are obedient to the Father. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same Divine Will. There is one will and one authority in God, not command and obedience. God does not command God.

Did you read the link I gave to Saint Augustine? Do you have any questions about it?

standingonshoulders.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/augustine-sermon-52.pdf

Maybe Saint John of Damascus would help you:

**“For there is one essence, one goodness, one power, one will, one energy, one authority, one and the same, I repeat, not three resembling each other. But the three subsistences have one and the same movement. For each one of them is related as closely to the other as to itself: that is to say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in all respects, save those of not being begotten, of birth and of procession.” **

newadvent.org/fathers/33041.htm
 
BrunoMaria said:
Who mistakes Jesus Christ with the Father? Not me. I wrote: “Of course we all know, that Jesus Christ is God in the Father and the Holy Spirit. Even all Christian split-groups confess this. Ever more so, as Jesus said in Mt 28,18: All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me”. (Given to me, indicates that The Father gave it to Jesus). Still: “He who saw Me, has seen the Father” John 14,9.

Neither can we ever say “a” God, for there is ONE God - not three - nor any others. The many gods other religions adore, are dead gods (even some with elephant- or ape heads).

God remains always in Charge, too is a challenge to say, for in which respect is God in charge when here on earth sin reigns - in wars, cheating, lie, murder and wide-spead atheism?
The Prince of the World is in charge for this godless doing.

The indeed bleak picture of unbelief in today’s society, has nothing at all to do with the absolute strength in belief of The Early Church first centuries after Christ, though blood of martyrs is shed today all the same. Neither has it to do with our today’s Church under Pope Francis, who brought many back to Church. Church remains The Mystical Body of Christ throughout all times.

But indeed we might ask today again as Jesus did in Luke 18,8: "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?”
For the faith in today’s word is very airy. For which percentage of average people you ask, will agree and answer by a firm YES, when you ask them about their absolute belief in Christ? The vast majority will forbearingly smile at such question, or even mock about belief.
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As long as we don’t forget that they are three distinct persons, with one essence.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
I never said there was. Jesus is a God. Fact. End of story.
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As the others have been trying to get through to you Jesus is not a God. He is God.
Saying he is a God means there is more than one God.
Are you suggesting the Trinity is three Gods??
 
thistle said:
As the others have been trying to get through to you Jesus is not a God. He is God.
Saying he is a God means there is more than one God.
Are you suggesting the Trinity is three Gods??
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The bolded part are your words not mine. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all God. However the Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to the Creator (the father). That is nature in the relationship.
 
PluniaZ said:
It is not correct to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are obedient to the Father. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same Divine Will. There is one will and one authority in God, not command and obedience. God does not command God.

Did you read the link I gave to Saint Augustine? Do you have any questions about it?

standingonshoulders.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/augustine-sermon-52.pdf

Maybe Saint John of Damascus would help you:

**“For there is one essence, one goodness, one power, one will, one energy, one authority, one and the same, I repeat, not three resembling each other. But the three subsistences have one and the same movement. For each one of them is related as closely to the other as to itself: that is to say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in all respects, save those of not being begotten, of birth and of procession.” **

newadvent.org/fathers/33041.htm
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Hello Pluniaz,

Yes I read it. Thank you it was interesting read. I still could not find where it says the Son is not obedient to the Father? i thought that was the nature of every good Father-Son relationship
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Hello Pluniaz,

Yes I read it. Thank you it was interesting read. I still could not find where it says the Son is not obedient to the Father? i thought that was the nature of every good Father-Son relationship
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Page 52, paragraph 4:

“Does the Father do anything that the Son doesn’t do, or the Son do anything that the Father doesn’t do?”

“We answer, ‘No.’”

Also read the below from Aquinas:
Objection 2. Further, greater is the power of him who commands and teaches than of him who obeys and hears. But the Father commands the Son according to John 14:31: “As the Father gave Me commandment so do I.” The Father also teaches the Son: “The Father loveth the Son, and showeth Him all things that Himself doth” (John 5:20). Also, the Son hears: “As I hear, so I judge” (John 5:30). Therefore the Father has greater power than the Son.
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Reply to Objection 2. The Father’s “showing” and the Son’s “hearing” are to be taken in the sense that the Father communicates knowledge to the Son, as He communicates His essence. The command of the Father can be explained in the same sense, as giving Him from eternity knowledge and will to act, by begetting Him. Or, better still, this may be referred to Christ in His human nature.
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newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm#article6
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
The bolded part are your words not mine. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all God. However the Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to the Creator (the father). That is nature in the relationship.
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There is only one divine will within the Trinity. Therefore, while there is a sense in which the Son and the Spirit are relationally subordinate to the Father (He generates Them and not vice versa), I’m not sure it makes sense to speak of obedience between the persons of the Trinity. They are all of one mind and will because there is only one mind and will there, not because there are three minds and wills, two of which conform to the third.

Now, Jesus’ human will (which is distinct from the divine will) could be said to have obeyed the divine will in all things, but that is not the same thing as the Son and the Spirit obeying the Father.
 
Usagi said:
There is only one divine will within the Trinity. Therefore, while there is a sense in which the Son and the Spirit are relationally subordinate to the Father (He generates Them and not vice versa), I’m not sure it makes sense to speak of obedience between the persons of the Trinity. They are all of one mind and will because there is only one mind and will there, not because there are three minds and wills, two of which conform to the third.

Now, Jesus’ human will (which is distinct from the divine will) could be said to have obeyed the divine will in all things, but that is not the same thing as the Son and the Spirit obeying the Father.
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“Subordinate” is never a good word to use when discussing the Most Holy Trinity. Aquinas is clear that the relations between the Divine Persons are according to equality. At one point he says, “As, therefore, the same essence, which in the Father is paternity, in the Son is filiation, so the same dignity which, in the Father is paternity, in the Son is filiation.”

newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
The bolded part are your words not mine. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all God. However the Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to the Creator (the father). That is nature in the relationship.
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YOU are the one who said Jesus is a God. He is not a God.
He is God. There is only ONE God.
 
thistle said:
YOU are the one who said Jesus is a God. He is not a God.
He is God. There is only ONE God.
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My goodness thistle, learn to read and comprehend my friend.
Your putting your own interpretation on my words which is a strawman fallacy/.
Take some deep breaths, calm down, and re read my posts a couple times.
Once you have re read them please post a logical response, instead of blurting out a illogical talking point that has no basis in fact or reason.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
My goodness thistle, learn to read and comprehend my friend.
Your putting your own interpretation on my words which is a strawman fallacy/.
Take some deep breaths, calm down, and re read my posts a couple times.
Once you have re read them please post a logical response, instead of blurting out a illogical talking point that has no basis in fact or reason.
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TheTrinitySaves, I believe that you are trying to express the orthodox doctrine, but your repeated use of “a God” is confusing at best. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are modern quasi-Arians, are the most common users of that terminology. It’s just not something you hear among Trinitarians. “A God” makes it sound as though there could be others, or that, if each Person of the Trinity is “a God,” then perhaps together they are Gods. Again, I know you don’t mean that, but your insistence on that choice of words is strange.
 
Usagi said:
TheTrinitySaves, I believe that you are trying to express the orthodox doctrine, but your repeated use of “a God” is confusing at best. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are modern quasi-Arians, are the most common users of that terminology. It’s just not something you hear among Trinitarians. “A God” makes it sound as though there could be others, or that, if each Person of the Trinity is “a God,” then perhaps together they are Gods. Again, I know you don’t mean that, but your insistence on that choice of words is strange.
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You have to use the word “A” to demonstrate the son is obedient and to a lesser extant the holy spirits obedience to the father
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Hmmm.

I am a Man.
If I was the only man left on earth I would still be a Man not Man.
The above disproves your theory on the english language
Jesus Is a God, The Holy Spirit is A God, The Son Is a God,

A does not always signify many, it can signify a small amount, or 1.

If their is one God, and I say their is a God, I have not committed a violation.

The Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to The Father. However all are the same God in 3 beings.

(A God and A God are obedient To A God. However all are the Same God in 3 beings)

Peace.
Click to expand...
Your last line is definitely false because it is tritheism.

You are one man among many. Even if you are the last man on earth, you are one of potentially many. God is one and there can be no other. There is an absolute distinction between God and his creation. When you speak of god and the gods, you are speaking of two different concepts. God exists and there can be no other. The Greek or roman gods were just beings within the universe, but God created the universe itself.
 
PluniaZ said:
It is not correct to say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are obedient to the Father. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same Divine Will. There is one will and one authority in God, not command and obedience. God does not command God.

Did you read the link I gave to Saint Augustine? Do you have any questions about it?

standingonshoulders.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/augustine-sermon-52.pdf

Maybe Saint John of Damascus would help you:

**“For there is one essence, one goodness, one power, one will, one energy, one authority, one and the same, I repeat, not three resembling each other. But the three subsistences have one and the same movement. For each one of them is related as closely to the other as to itself: that is to say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in all respects, save those of not being begotten, of birth and of procession.” **

newadvent.org/fathers/33041.htm
Click to expand...
Not necessarily true. Jesus himself says he is obedient to the Father. The monarchy of the Father is an important concept within Trinitarian theology.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
The bolded part are your words not mine. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are all God. However the Son and The Holy Spirit are obedient to the Creator (the father). That is nature in the relationship.
Click to expand...
The Son and the Holy Spirit are the creator. To say they are obedient to the creator is Arianism. Arius asserted that the Son was the first creation, and that he was God by association or attribution.
 
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