P
PluniaZ
Guest
This is heresy. You are wrong. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is right.
Stop spreading your heresies. It is a mortal sin.
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Stop spreading your heresies. It is a mortal sin.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
This is not hersey.This is heresy. You are wrong. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is right.
Stop spreading your heresies. It is a mortal sin.
The Son Is Obedient to the Father. Please provide scripture that says differently, not your own interpretation of St. Augusine. I disagree with your interpretation.
Please stop accusing me of a mortal sin simply for disagreeing with you.
M
Mongo
Guest
I am not sure whether you are saying that it is due to his human nature or because he receives his essence from the Father. The Son proceeds from the Father and the will of the Father is that of the Son. It doesn’t just happen to be the same, it is from the Father. Everything the Son has is from the Father, and in that sense the Son is subordinate to the Father (even though they are equal in all their attributes). The Son is obedient to the Father.
M
Mongo
Guest
Settle down.This is heresy. You are wrong. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is right.
Stop spreading your heresies. It is a mortal sin.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
Reasonable minds can disagree on this topic without commiting mortal sins.This is heresy. You are wrong. The Holy Roman Catholic Church is right.
Stop spreading your heresies. It is a mortal sin.
P
PluniaZ
Guest
You are disagreeing with the Holy Roman Catholic Church:This is not hersey.
The Son Is Obedient to the Father. Please provide scripture that says differently, not your own interpretation of St. Augusine. I disagree with your interpretation.
Please stop accusing me of a mortal sin simply for disagreeing with you.
“So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.” - The Athanasian Creed. Not “The Son is a God.” But “The Son is God.” Saying, “the Son is a God” is HERESY.
“And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal.” - the Athanasian Creed. Not, “the Son and the Holy Spirit are obedient to the Father”, but “the whole Three Persons are Co-equal.”
Aquinas confirms this in the links I have repeatedly given.
P
PluniaZ
Guest
I’m not saying it. Aquinas is saying it. And he explicitly says the better view is that obedience is to be understood in relation to the Son’s manhood. But the only sense in which it can be understood of the Godhead is that the Son is begotten of the Father, which Aquinas explicitly says “is according to equality”, not subordination.I am not sure whether you are saying that it is due to his human nature or because he receives his essence from the Father. The Son proceeds from the Father and the will of the Father is that of the Son. It doesn’t just happen to be the same, it is from the Father. Everything the Son has is from the Father, and in that sense the Son is subordinate to the Father (even though they are equal in all their attributes). The Son is obedient to the Father.
newadvent.org/summa/1043.htm#article1
Subordination is not an acceptable term when describing the relations of the Divine Persons.
P
PluniaZ
Guest
No, reasonable minds cannot disagree about the dogma of the Most Holy Trinity. The Athanasian Creed explicitly says, “**Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. **And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence.”Reasonable minds can disagree on this topic without commiting mortal sins.
You are endangering your own soul and the soul of everyone who reads your mistaken teachings.
T
TheTrinitySaves
Guest
You are disagreeing with the Holy Roman Catholic Church:
“So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.” - The Athanasian Creed. Not “The Son is a God.” But “The Son is God.” Saying, “the Son is a God” is HERESY.
“And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal.” - the Athanasian Creed. Not, “the Son and the Holy Spirit are obedient to the Father”, but “the whole Three Persons are Co-equal.”
Aquinas confirms this in the links I have repeatedly given.
- Once again you seem to intentionally misinterpret what I was saying earlier. I will stipulate with your language, and will not use “a God”, but instead just use God.
- However it is not heresy to proclaim to say the son is obedient to the father. Being obedient is not the same as being inferior. You think it is a mortal sin to believe this?
P
PluniaZ
Guest
Thank you. I am glad you are willing to change on this important issue.
- Once again you seem to intentionally misinterpret what I was saying earlier. I will stipulate with your language, and will not use “a God”, but instead just use God.
First, there is no reason to spread the teaching that “the Son is obedient to the Father.” It is not in any of the church’s creeds, and it is a statement that is the centerpiece of heretic groups such as the Arians and Jehovah’s Witnesses. The statement has the great potential to cause misunderstanding and lead people into heresy, so there is no good reason to go around saying it.
- However it is not heresy to proclaim to say the son is obedient to the father. Being obedient is not the same as being inferior. You think it is a mortal sin to believe this?
Second, if you ever do say it for whatever reason, you need to be absolutely clear as to the exact sense in which the Son can be considered “obedient” to the Father. Saint Thomas Aquinas gives these senses in the following passage I shared earlier:
Objection 2. Further, greater is the power of him who commands and teaches than of him who obeys and hears. But the Father commands the Son according to John 14:31: “As the Father gave Me commandment so do I.” The Father also teaches the Son: “The Father loveth the Son, and showeth Him all things that Himself doth” (John 5:20). Also, the Son hears: “As I hear, so I judge” (John 5:30). Therefore the Father has greater power than the Son.
newadvent.org/summa/1042.htm#article6Reply to Objection 2. The Father’s “showing” and the Son’s “hearing” are to be taken in the sense that the Father communicates knowledge to the Son, as He communicates His essence. The command of the Father can be explained in the same sense, as giving Him from eternity knowledge and will to act, by begetting Him. Or, better still, this may be referred to Christ in His human nature.
Do you understand what Aquinas is saying?
B
BrunoMaria
Guest
A itchy, stitchy thorny, but otherwise quite nice flower by the name of Thistle - even the floral emblem of Scotland and Lorraine, as well as the emblem of the Encyclopædia Britannica, and a medicinal plant to pharmacists - annoying weed to farmers, led with his private thesis „Jesus is a God“ funnily enough to a new word I learned:
„Straw man fallacy". Great word. We don’t have it in Germany - well, we do actually, but it’s never used. A Stroh-man is rather referred to in lessons of fencing=Fechtsport, or a scarecrow (whilst crows don’t mind it). The word even in English, is used though in German Philosophical tracts - beyond my education-level ;-D
However. Let’s forever beware of the absolutely wrong and pagan word „A GOD" when referring to The Holy Trinity.
Let’s agree on Jesus’ doctrine or rather explanation and reference to the Holy Trinity like in John 14,26. Christ sending the Holy Spirit while being given all Power from the Father (Mt 28,18). These and many more biblical statements make very clear as to „Who“ in The Holy Trinity does or did what, when.
Though we got very many hints as to every Being within the Holy Trinity - like it’s Jesus Christ who will judge us before The Father - not The Father Himself, nor The Holy Spirit - but Jesus Christ will recognize or deny those HE judges, but judges „BEFORE MY FATHER" as Jesus told in Mt 10,33 -
Though we know this and many more revelations Christ gave as to God in the Holy Trinity; neither the Angels ever did, nor we ever will actually comprehend God, as God is and remains into all eternity incomprehensible to all creation. Match many statements in the Bible to this fact, match e.g.
http://biblehub.com/romans/11-33.htm
But friends; let’s strictly beware of any arguing about God. God is God - period! God in The Most Holy Trinity as revealed to us by Jesus Christ.
The tragedy in all Christian forums is quarrelling. OK even the disciples argued in Mark 9,34. This arguing among Christians, finally led to an endless splitting of Churches - not just by Luther or Henry VIII, but even still continuing much later, so we now got a sheer countless number of Christian Churches. A disgrace, as Jesus founded but ONE Church. If all had heeded Christ’s words in Mark 9,35: “If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and servant of all” we still had but one Church.
But not only in this large scale, but even among us here - at home, among others or in forums; let’s be servant of others. Christ was, as our Pope demonstrates in doing as Jesus did - the footwashing - which Pope Francis even did in a prison.
Otherwise Pope Francis in many other ways demonstrates Christ’s love - e.g. by talking to all - sinners as good people alike.
So let’s try never to rebuke and reproach among Christian brethren, for we all will stand before Jesus Christ, and He must not be ashamed of us, as any father would be when his grown up children quarrell! Woe to us if He is ashamed - over people who considered themselves Model-Christians.
Yours
Bruno
„Straw man fallacy". Great word. We don’t have it in Germany - well, we do actually, but it’s never used. A Stroh-man is rather referred to in lessons of fencing=Fechtsport, or a scarecrow (whilst crows don’t mind it). The word even in English, is used though in German Philosophical tracts - beyond my education-level ;-D
However. Let’s forever beware of the absolutely wrong and pagan word „A GOD" when referring to The Holy Trinity.
Let’s agree on Jesus’ doctrine or rather explanation and reference to the Holy Trinity like in John 14,26. Christ sending the Holy Spirit while being given all Power from the Father (Mt 28,18). These and many more biblical statements make very clear as to „Who“ in The Holy Trinity does or did what, when.
Though we got very many hints as to every Being within the Holy Trinity - like it’s Jesus Christ who will judge us before The Father - not The Father Himself, nor The Holy Spirit - but Jesus Christ will recognize or deny those HE judges, but judges „BEFORE MY FATHER" as Jesus told in Mt 10,33 -
Though we know this and many more revelations Christ gave as to God in the Holy Trinity; neither the Angels ever did, nor we ever will actually comprehend God, as God is and remains into all eternity incomprehensible to all creation. Match many statements in the Bible to this fact, match e.g.
http://biblehub.com/romans/11-33.htm
But friends; let’s strictly beware of any arguing about God. God is God - period! God in The Most Holy Trinity as revealed to us by Jesus Christ.
The tragedy in all Christian forums is quarrelling. OK even the disciples argued in Mark 9,34. This arguing among Christians, finally led to an endless splitting of Churches - not just by Luther or Henry VIII, but even still continuing much later, so we now got a sheer countless number of Christian Churches. A disgrace, as Jesus founded but ONE Church. If all had heeded Christ’s words in Mark 9,35: “If anyone wants to be first, he must be last of all and servant of all” we still had but one Church.
But not only in this large scale, but even among us here - at home, among others or in forums; let’s be servant of others. Christ was, as our Pope demonstrates in doing as Jesus did - the footwashing - which Pope Francis even did in a prison.
Otherwise Pope Francis in many other ways demonstrates Christ’s love - e.g. by talking to all - sinners as good people alike.
So let’s try never to rebuke and reproach among Christian brethren, for we all will stand before Jesus Christ, and He must not be ashamed of us, as any father would be when his grown up children quarrell! Woe to us if He is ashamed - over people who considered themselves Model-Christians.
Yours
Bruno
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