G
Ghosty
Guest
Hell is the abandonment of God’s love. It’s a choice. It’s not a place where God punishes us. By the very definition of Hell, God does not interact with it at all.
- Status
F
Faith101
Guest
Its not a place where God punishes us?? Its a choice? who in their right mind would wilingly choose hell?
In the Quran, God tells us that there will be people on the day of Judgement that will do anything they can even begging God for another day on earth so they can do good and be of the righteous…but their requests will be denied and they will be put into hell as a punishment for the deeds they have committed on this earth.
Who do you believe puts people in hell. I know “by choice” you mean HERE ON EARTh we have a choice…we can either follow the truth and obey God or not…and consequently have a choice on whether we go to paradise or be thrown in hell.
my question: Do you believe that on the day of judgment, after we will all be judged, God will not be the one responsible for punishing those who need punishment? If so, than who has that power?
G
Ghosty
Guest
Many people. People do it every day, in fact. The fact of evil and sin is the fact of Hell. Turning away from God is turning away from God.
Catholics believe, and always have, that we put ourselves in Hell. Death merely closes the door.
God certainly punishes those in need of punishment, but those in Hell are those who walk away from that punishment. The people in Heaven are those who either accept it, or (rarely) don’t need it. This is where the concept of purgation comes in.
H
hawk
Guest
Those who sin, ofcourse, and reject Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
No, I dont think he means that. He means rejecting God in everyway, even in His presence.
The punishment (you call it) however satanists will not call it punishment, but actually welcome that fate, even on judgement day, such is the corruption of that kind.
So the punishment isnt really a punishment, but rather a choice we make to reject God, in this life and the next.
F
Faith101
Guest
anyone can call it what they want when they are sitting here cozily on earth. But when the punishment comes, they’ll realize its not a joke and they will not welcome it.
to understand you and Ghosty correctly…the power on who goes to heaven or hell is up to God…and therefore, if not accepted into Heaven…those who deserve it will be put into helll…all of this is done under God’s power and His command. Right?
H
hawk
Guest
Right and Wrong,
Yes God has ultimate power and command of everything.
But it is we who reject Him, in this life and the next.
G
Ghosty
Guest
Not exactly. God allows people to choose Hell, and allows them to enter it, and in death that decision is final. God doesn’t have to put you in there. Heaven, on the other hand, is a bit different. God desires all of us to come to Heaven, but does not force us. We are not toys, we are people that He loves. He will not make us come to Heaven if we don’t want it, and so He lets us go to Hell. He does make it possible to come to Heaven, though, and part of that is showing us virtue, and also in the Mystery of the Incarnation and Crucifixion.
It’s not that God couldn’t just throw people into Hell, it’s that He doesn’t because He doesn’t desire it. He desires us to come to Heaven, but He also desires us to make a choice. If in making the choice we choose evil, choose Hell, God allows us to keep our choice.
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Veronica Anne:
Please consider the Biblical verses below.
JN 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me **shall **be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.
JN 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: **and **my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
One of God’s attributes is the All Loving, but what can be noticed in the above Biblical verses? I noticed that God, although He is the All Loving, , is putting -through his messenger Jesus- conditions for His love.
Jesus is telling his disciples that if they truly love him, they should keep his word, his commandments, AND God will love them. This is simply logical: One cannot claim to love God and ignore the commandments received through His messenger; it would amount to hypocrisy. God subjected his love to the acceptance of His messenger’s commandments. At least that’s my understanding of the above verses, I stand to be corrected.
In the Qur’an, we have similar statement: “Say (O Muhammad): “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an 003.031)
One of the names Allah (SWT) gave Himself is Al-Wadud, the All-Loving.
Love in Arabic is Hub, however there is a stronger and deeper term, which is **Ma’wada **from which the noun Wadud is generated.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam Friend Veronica;Still… remember THEIR God – named Allah – is NOT a loving god.
Would help you if you kept that in mind.
Please consider the Biblical verses below.
JN 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me **shall **be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.
JN 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: **and **my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
One of God’s attributes is the All Loving, but what can be noticed in the above Biblical verses? I noticed that God, although He is the All Loving, , is putting -through his messenger Jesus- conditions for His love.
Jesus is telling his disciples that if they truly love him, they should keep his word, his commandments, AND God will love them. This is simply logical: One cannot claim to love God and ignore the commandments received through His messenger; it would amount to hypocrisy. God subjected his love to the acceptance of His messenger’s commandments. At least that’s my understanding of the above verses, I stand to be corrected.
In the Qur’an, we have similar statement: “Say (O Muhammad): “If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (Qur’an 003.031)
One of the names Allah (SWT) gave Himself is Al-Wadud, the All-Loving.
Love in Arabic is Hub, however there is a stronger and deeper term, which is **Ma’wada **from which the noun Wadud is generated.
Salaam.
Joseph.
B
Booklover
Guest
Who do you suppose Jesus meant by “my Father”? Does he sound like he’s just a messenger?
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Friend Booklover;
Yes, because just one verse later, here is what he said: " He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me" (JN 14:24)
According to the verse above, Jesus said it was the Father who sent him; furthermore, he said that the word he was uttering was not his, meaning he was not speaking of his own authority. Was not he accomplishing the task of a messenger, delivering the word of his Father who sent him?
As for the word Father, I don’t take it literally, to me, it depends on the use of words of the time of Jesus; it could mean protector, provider, care-taker, or any role the father usually does.
Salaam.
Joseph.
A
Akanke
Guest
Although it does make him a messenger, it doesn’t make him just a messenger, which seems to be operative. In other words, one who delivers a message is a messenger, but they very well may be much more than that. Would you tend to agree?
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Friend Akanke;
Yes, I agree, but as far as Jesus (PBUH) is concerned, I agree with what the Qur’an says about him (which you are certainly aware of); that’s why I quoted the Biblical verses which are close to my belief about him; I say close because Father and Son, with their intended meaning in the Bible, do not correspond to my belief.
Salaam.
Joseph.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Hi Joseph,
Here is simpler translation from the Good News Bible.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments”.
**John 14:21 “Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. My father will love those who love me; I too will love them and reveal myself to them.”
John 14:23 “Those who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and my Father and I will come to them and live with them.**
This does not mean that the father does not love those who don’t love Him. It only mean that for those who don’t love Him will be incapable of receiving Him because they are like the world who cannot receive Him, because it cannot see or know Him (John 14:17).
See what Jesus says about the world in John 8:23 “You belong to the world here below, but I come from above. You are from this world, but I am not from this world. That’s why I told you that you will die in your sins. And you will die in your sins if you do not believe that ‘I Am who I Am”.
Jesus is saying that He himself is God the ‘I Am’ which derives from Exodus 3:13, when God appeared before Moses as the burning bush and said that He is the ‘I Am’. Sin separates man from God. Adam was separated from God when he committed sin by being driven of from paradise.
Peace
Reuben.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Yes He was a messenger as such and His word is to be believed because it is sent by the Father.
Yes, the word Father could be taken to mean protector, provider, care-taker, or any role the father usually does. Father also is God who sent Jesus and gave Him His Word.
This is what the evangelist John said of Jesus - John 3:16-18 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
This is what the Jews understood of Jesus. John 5:18 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
This is what Jesus said of Himself. John 14:9-10 9Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jesus is a messenger in the sense that He brings God Word. But He is more than a messenger because He has the power to save. John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
He is also more than merely messenger in that He will do whatever you ask for in my name, so that the Father’s glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14) A power to grant request which is attributed to God only.
There is no mistaken by John, by the Jews and by Himself of whom He said He was - The Father who is God sent Him down to earth to save the world. He is equal to the Father, as anyone who has seen Him see the Father.
Peace
Reuben
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
Reuben J:
Point taken my Friend. Since the verses you quoted satisfy you and give you the necessary justifications for your faith and beliefs, I will refrain from going any further by giving my own interpretations, and I will not give myself the right to do so, unless you give me your agreement.
However, I have a question if you don’t mind answering it: how do you reconcile between the statements in these verses?
“I and my Father are one." JN 10:30
“I **go **unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I” JN 14:28
“And the Father himself, …ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” JN 5:37. Thank you.
Salaam.
Joseph.
P.S: I hope the original poster will not be mad at me (and forgive me) for having diverted for a while the thread from its original subject.
Salaam Friend Reuben;
Point taken my Friend. Since the verses you quoted satisfy you and give you the necessary justifications for your faith and beliefs, I will refrain from going any further by giving my own interpretations, and I will not give myself the right to do so, unless you give me your agreement.
However, I have a question if you don’t mind answering it: how do you reconcile between the statements in these verses?
“I and my Father are one." JN 10:30
“I **go **unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I” JN 14:28
“And the Father himself, …ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape” JN 5:37. Thank you.
Salaam.
Joseph.
P.S: I hope the original poster will not be mad at me (and forgive me) for having diverted for a while the thread from its original subject.
T
Tmaque
Guest
Why don’t English speaking Muslims just call God…God? It would certainly save a lot of confusion.Please, let the Muslims speak for themselves
Allah is a loving God. One of the 99 names of Allah is THE LOVING. There are many verses in the Quran to prove this, if you are interested, i can post them for you.
I am a Muslim and I love Allah
Also, when you say “*their * God is called Allah” …that doesnt make much sense. There is only one God and we worship that same God. Many Arab Christians call God, Allah.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Peace be with you too, brother Joseph.
Thank you for being such a gentleman about this. For that you certainly have earned my personal respect. I believe that mature Catholics would accept that people of different faith might interpret the Bible differently than us. For that matter, even among Christians there are many different interpretations of the various verses of the Bible. Catholics are fortunate in that the Church helps us in clarifying the meaning of the more difficult verses.
Having said that, generally the message of the Bible is quite obvious and are self-explained by the very verses themselves. In the spirit of openess in interfaith discussion, you are free to give your own views of the biblical verses concerned. Of course in saying this, we would ask for reciprocity when necessary. As Bible can be interpretated in many different ways, and so is the Quran. I mean not just among people of the same faith, but by people outside the faith of the respective books.
My personal thought on these verses is that Jesus speaks as the human Son of God and often explains the situation when he is in the fullness of his glory after the resurrection. In this he is mere human though from the many words he speak about himself that he is certainly a very special person.
This becomes clear when you look at other examples of his actions and his teaching. See his story in **Mark 12 ** about the owner of the vineyard. Jesus saw himself as in a different class to the servants (prophets) who had come before. They were merely messengers sent by the vineyard owner (God) to the tenants (Israelites). Jesus, however, saw himself as the obedient son.
This has profound implications for an understanding of Jesus. Because Jesus does not see himself as one in a line of prophets, preceded by John the Baptist. As far as Jesus is concerned, the line of prophets had ended — John was the last. He, Jesus, is in a different class … he is the obedient son of the vineyard owner.
More examples of Jesus being not just any prophet:-
• That in regard to the Temple, Jesus considers it to be defunct — and he actively speaks against it. Indeed, his whole purpose of going to Jerusalem at the climax of his ministry seems to be to speak against it and the religious regime centred upon it.
• In regard to Torah, Jesus seems to consider himself free to abrogate or add to many aspects of the Old Testament. In the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew chapters 5-7, we have some the greatest ethical teaching of Jesus. Several times he says of commands in the Old Testament “you have heard that it was written …” and then precedes to respond “but I say to you …” We see him change the Law regarding divorce, revenge, murder, adultery, and love for enemies. And all on his own authority.
• And in regard to God’s Spirit, we see what for a first century Jew would have amounted to blasphemy. Jesus claims authority over the very Spirit of God itself; in **John 15:26 ** Jesus promises that he will send God’s Spirit …
Thus many of the actions and the sayings of Jesus need to be understood in his dual characteristics as truly human and as truly God. While he was still alive on earth he would speak as a human, but after he is resurrected his characteristic as God comes in full play.
When he mentions that he and the Father is one **(John 10:30), ** this is to explain the fullness of his glory after the resurrection.
When he mentions that the father is greater than him **(John 14:28), ** it is to explain the situation at that moment, before he is going to the Father.
John 5:37 (GNB) And the Father, who sent me, also testifies on my behalf. You have never heard His voice or seen His face". He says this to the Jews who do not believe in him. Note the difference in his attitude to those who reject him, the Jews, and those who do not undertsand him but accept him, his disciples.
God bless you.
Reuben.
A
Akanke
Guest
Peace be with you Joseph. Like Reuben, I have gained much respect for you.
I hope I did not imply that I was meaning to convince you of my belief. I was trying to find a common ground of understanding of “messenger” as it relates to other things that make one who they are.
That led me to ask: Is the thing in question what Catholics believe to be true of Jesus? Do you think that, based on that which we hold as Scripture, we have overlooked a gap in our understanding of Father and Son, especially, for the purpose of this discussion, as it relates to messenger? Or, do you understand why we believe as we do about Jesus as messenger and Son?
I respect that you would not credit the Scriptures (as Catholics know them) as a source for your positive beliefs (“I believe…” vs. the negative, “I don’t believe…”), and I sense that you respect that I would not use the Koran as a source for my positive beliefs.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Reuben J:
The verses in contention are John 14:9, where Jesus said to Philip, one of his disciples that whoever has seen him (Jesus) has seen the Father (God). Yet in John 5:37, Jesus said to the Jews who were determined to kill him because they thought he blasphemed by making himself equal to the Father (John 5:18), that they never heard God’s voice nor seen His face (even though they saw Jesus). So why’s the discrepancy?
This is because those who rejected him despite the miracles he performed as his signs were likened to the rebellious ancient Israelites in Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.”
These people are considered foolish and senseless, Jeremiah 5:21 “Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear”, to whom God asked Isaiah to prophesize, Isaiah 6:9 "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving’. And God’s anger was upon them leading to the destruction of their nation.
Thus by saying the verse in John 5:37, the prophecies of the ancient prophets rang true. Those Jews were those who have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear (Mark8:18). Even though they have seen Jesus, they would not know him, and so have not seen God, thus could not be saved.
However for the disciples who were willing to believe in him even though did not understand at first would have their ears heard and eyes opened to see God in Jesus and thus were saved (see Isaiah 32:3).
Peace
Reuben.
Just to expand a bit on the above for the benefit of our Muslim friends here.
The verses in contention are John 14:9, where Jesus said to Philip, one of his disciples that whoever has seen him (Jesus) has seen the Father (God). Yet in John 5:37, Jesus said to the Jews who were determined to kill him because they thought he blasphemed by making himself equal to the Father (John 5:18), that they never heard God’s voice nor seen His face (even though they saw Jesus). So why’s the discrepancy?
This is because those who rejected him despite the miracles he performed as his signs were likened to the rebellious ancient Israelites in Ezekiel 12:2 "Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.”
These people are considered foolish and senseless, Jeremiah 5:21 “Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear”, to whom God asked Isaiah to prophesize, Isaiah 6:9 "Go and tell this people: " 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving’. And God’s anger was upon them leading to the destruction of their nation.
Thus by saying the verse in John 5:37, the prophecies of the ancient prophets rang true. Those Jews were those who have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear (Mark8:18). Even though they have seen Jesus, they would not know him, and so have not seen God, thus could not be saved.
However for the disciples who were willing to believe in him even though did not understand at first would have their ears heard and eyes opened to see God in Jesus and thus were saved (see Isaiah 32:3).
Peace
Reuben.
J
Joseph_Alison
Guest
To my Friends Reuben and Akanke;
Salaam to you.
Just to let you know I have read your replies and questions and, Incha’Allah, I will have something. Little bit tied up with other stuff these days.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam to you.
Just to let you know I have read your replies and questions and, Incha’Allah, I will have something. Little bit tied up with other stuff these days.
Salaam.
Joseph.
- Status