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Darrel
Guest
That is unless you sin with adultery. In this case the great prophet mohamed would like you to be wrapped in your close and stoned to death. People being killed removes sin in Islam and is an act of mercy.
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Ghosty;
The only fear we have is to fall into heresy without us noticing it. We recognize our intellectual limitations.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Think of a sleeping person. Does a person having a dreamless sleep loose his/her mind? No, but he/she has no thoughts at all. You have her a case with a mind without thought.
Hopefully the irony will dissipate if you lean that the 99 names of Allah (SWT) are all in the holy Qur’an. Allah (SWT) Himself is revealing us His attributes in His revelation; we are not innovating or adding anything beside what He told us Who He is and how to call Him.
Afraid? And from your perspective? Why should I be?
The only fear we have is to fall into heresy without us noticing it. We recognize our intellectual limitations.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Reuben J:
Even if I don’t agree, I do understand your position and your explanations; I respect them as you presented them. I am not willing to discuss the Christian divinity of Jesus anymore.
Salaam.
Joseph.
Salaam Brother Reuben;
Even if I don’t agree, I do understand your position and your explanations; I respect them as you presented them. I am not willing to discuss the Christian divinity of Jesus anymore.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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r.gonzales
Guest
the point faith was trying to get across is that there is no concept of the original sin in islam, i.e., we are not sinners from the moment of birth, as christianity’s beliefs dictate. nor are we held accountable for the sins of another. as Allah says in the Quran, “no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”
yes, there are sins where complete repentance entails some sort of atonement. one such sin is fornication, as you’ve mentioned. the legislated penalty for fornicating is 100 lashes and exile for one year for the fornicator who was a virgin, and death via stoning for the fornicator who is married, has been widowed or divorced - i.e., a person who was not a virgin. other such sins that require some sort of atonement or expiation are intentionally breaking obligatory fasts, breaking oaths, murder and accidental killing, violating the rules of the pilgrimage to mecca, and others. their penalties vary according to the offense.
as for the main topic of discussion, i have yet to read this thread, so this is the only contribution to the discussion i can offer at the moment. however, when i get some free time i’ll go through it and reply accordingly.
peace.
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hlgomez
Guest
Joseph,
This may happen, but it doesn’t contradict Ghosty’s position. They can both exist in a person, but your latter argument alone will not hold firm.
Pio
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Ghosty
Guest
Actually they do have brain activity and thought, without it they’d be a corpse. Just because the person doesn’t dream, or doesn’t remember their dreams, doesn’t mean they don’t have thought running through their heads. Lack of brain activity means a dead body, and aside from actual putrification it’s the only reliable way to determine that someone is dead.
Actually, the fact that you respond this way heightens the irony immensly. The three names of God that Christians use were taught directly by Jesus Christ and recorded in the Scriptures. You act as if we made these things up, even though they are in the words of the “prophet” you yourself hail. It was not added in later as Muslims suppose, but is present from the very beginning as is obvious from records.
Theological discussion does not make heresy. Quite the contrary, discussion eliminates heresy. It is when things can’t be discussed openly that heresy grows and spreads. The theological issues we are discussing now were originally brought up precisely to combat heresy, without ever putting constraints or limits upon God.
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kristyn
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r.gonzales
Guest
Reuben J:
kristyn:
we believe that Allah has more than 99 names (note that it is not attributes that this number is assigned to). the misconception that Allah only has 99 names stems from a hadeeth that mentions great reward for the one who memorises (w/understanding of their meanings) Allah’s 99 names. some narrations of this hadeeth go on to list some of these names, but these additions are weak and not part of the original hadeeth as mentioned by some of the scholars who specialise in the field of hadeeth. as Allah mentions in the Quran, “to Him are the beautiful names. He is glorified by whatever is in the heaven and the earth. and He is the Mighty, the Wise.” (59:24) islamic belief is that we affirm whatever name or attribute that Allah described Himself with in the Quran and that prophet muhammad described Him with in the authentic sunnah. one book that i have on the subject of Allah’s names and attributes lists Allah’s names at over 100 (i can’t recall the exact number). the author of the book set some principles for what is considered a name and what is not, and sifted through the legislative texts of islam to extract as many as he could. he mentions that what he lists is what he himself found and that there are more, as he was not able to extensively go through all the texts available.
please give your reference of this story in the Quran, because from what i know, there is no such story in it. it exists in some of islam’s other texts, but not the Quran.
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Sanning
Guest
Having started this thread, I will now give you my response!“Why don’t Muslims believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross, for
their sins”?
The answer is that the Quran tells them that he did not, where as,
being a Christian, I know he did by “personal revelation” from God.
Can Muslims ever understand this?
their sins”?
The answer is that the Quran tells them that he did not, where as,
being a Christian, I know he did by “personal revelation” from God.
Can Muslims ever understand this?
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r.gonzales
Guest
only the prophets and messengers receive revelation from Allah… are you claiming prophethood by this statement? :ehh:
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Sanning
Guest
No, but I can talk directly to God, and he talks directly to me, through Jesus Christ.
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r.gonzales
Guest
i’m sorry, but that kind of reminds me of that korean guy (i think it happened in korea, i forget where exactly) who was in the news last year for jumping in the lion’s den at the zoo to go taunt the lions… he said that God spoke to him too, claiming that God told him to taunt them.
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hawk
Guest
See this is just the kind of statement that makes no sense to a Christian.
Its like claiming that the Quran makes people into extremist suicide bombers.
Just as we know the Quran doesnt say that, we also know through the Holy Spirit the living nature of God, so claim all you want that God made you jump to the lions or pick up snakes, but we know that God doesnt make you do those things!
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hawk
Guest
That is why islam is devoid of any living sign of God!
The best of the beleivers?
right, but who does all the humanitarian work?
Who donates?
Which countries donated the most to indonesia?
Claim all you want, but Allah doesnt seem to be present in islam, and never was either!
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Joseph_Alison
Guest
Salaam Brother Sanning;
Yes, you are right, we believe what the Qur’an tells us about Jesus (PBUH) simply because we believe the Qur’an to be a revelation from God. Your belief in another hand is no different from ours; you still believe what you believe about Jesus dying for your sins because of a “personal revelation” from God. We are in presence of two believed divine revelations; are they from the same God? I think Catholics believe that the Muslims worship the Creator; the question of the God worshipped by both of us is then settled; so what do you think the problem to be? Is the Qur’an a false book, a forgery for instance?
Thank you.
Salaam.
Joseph.
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janG
Guest
The “personal revelation” we are speaking of is God’s grace working in us…the work of the Holy Spirit (and we don’t mean Gabriel.) We’re not talking about an “angel” appearing to us and claiming to give us a message from God.
What is the Koran? Well, reading it from a Catholic perspective, it sounds like the writings of a man who knew a little bit about Jewish teaching and little bit about heretical Christian teaching. It sounds like he thought about what he knew and tried to interpret it himself. Unfortunately it misses the big picture of what God had revealed about Himself over the course of human history. To believe the Koran and that it’s a revelation from God, requires that someone believe that God did not remain faithful to His part in the covenants He made throughout time. It requires that you believe gigantic conspiracy theories about alterations to scripture and that you ignore Jewish, Christian and even secular history regarding the death of Christ. Frankly, it requires following an awful lot of tortured logic. I trust God too much to believe He let His truth get lost like that. That was the purpose of establishing the Jewish nation and is the purpose of the Church that Christ established…it keeps God’s truth always available to mankind…it is God keeping true to the covenants He made throughout the course of human history.
Did Mohammed get some things right in the Koran? Yes, and the Catholic church recognizes those bits of truth. Unfortunately, there’s an awful lot that keeps people from the fullness of God’s love for us.
What is the Koran? Well, reading it from a Catholic perspective, it sounds like the writings of a man who knew a little bit about Jewish teaching and little bit about heretical Christian teaching. It sounds like he thought about what he knew and tried to interpret it himself. Unfortunately it misses the big picture of what God had revealed about Himself over the course of human history. To believe the Koran and that it’s a revelation from God, requires that someone believe that God did not remain faithful to His part in the covenants He made throughout time. It requires that you believe gigantic conspiracy theories about alterations to scripture and that you ignore Jewish, Christian and even secular history regarding the death of Christ. Frankly, it requires following an awful lot of tortured logic. I trust God too much to believe He let His truth get lost like that. That was the purpose of establishing the Jewish nation and is the purpose of the Church that Christ established…it keeps God’s truth always available to mankind…it is God keeping true to the covenants He made throughout the course of human history.
Did Mohammed get some things right in the Koran? Yes, and the Catholic church recognizes those bits of truth. Unfortunately, there’s an awful lot that keeps people from the fullness of God’s love for us.
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StMarkEofE
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Desert_Father
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Veronica Anne:
Lets be accurate.I spent my first two years of seminary at New Brunswick Theological, which had a 100 year history of mission to Arabia, so it’s been a center of Christian study on Islam for 116 years now. Islam was my minor and I spent much time in dialog. Jesus is actually said to be the greatest of the prophets, but Muhammad is said to be the “Cap of the Prophets.” The problem is that in his youth, Muhammad spent too much time hanging around Nestorian Monestaries (that’s where he picked up on the Blessid Mother). The Nestorians had odd and herretical views reguarding who Jesus was and were excommunicated from the Church for them . He also hung around Jewish Kabalists, and incorporated teachings from both, as well as pagan, native Arab teachings when he composed his religion for Arabs. That is how both the Jewish histeroreligious writings and the Gospels found their way, in outrageously mutalated form, into Islam. That is of course if indeed he himself actually composed them. They were certainly redacted and extencively editeted by the sultan after Muhammad’s death to legitimatize the sultan’s imperial ambissions.
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Fox
Guest
Islam is just a half baked copied version of Christianity. Isn’t it funny that both end days in both religions are virtually the same? To bad Muhammed couldn’t make something else up original.
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exoflare
Guest
Not quite. In the Muslim version, I think Jesus kills off all the pigs on earth for some reason.
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