Jesus' "church"

[Magnum_V8]

Okay, Jesus refers to His church a number of times throughout the Gospels.

I’ve been arguing with someone who says the “church” is the body of believers, not an organized, denominational church, such as our Catholic church.

This person has said she is involved with ALL faiths. She is not a baptized, practicing Catholic, but has received Holy Communion in a Catholic church. And a Catholic, she says, told her she could.

I told her you cannot receive the Eucharist in a Catholic church if you are not a baptized, practicing Catholic. She said she will continue to receive It whenever, and where ever, she wants.

When I first began talking to this lady, she said she feels closest to the Catholic beliefs. But, as time went on, I feel she is further from it than she thinks. And, frankly, I think it all has to do with this feeling about “the church.”

Any ideas?

 

[french]

Ask her what she thinks the “Church of Babylon” is.

There are many writings from Paul and such that say “From the Church of Babylon” … What they mean, is the Catholic Church. Babylon was code name for Rome.

Also, she can not take Eucharist without being Baptized within the Church. So you are right, and she is wrong lol and she needs to stop her ways.

 

[Sabda]

Ask her if she is willing to abide by the rules of a business, school, country, city etc. When she says yes, than ask her why she is intent on breaking the rules in our Church when she has no problem respecting the rules that other groups have.

Tell her to look on the front cover of the missal that is in every pew. They are clear as day about who can and who can not receive.

Secondly she is causing scandal by what she is doing, Jesus had some VERY strong words for those who cause scandal. Also, she is putting a stumbling block in front of others, again Jesus had said NOT to do this.

Lastly ask her how she feels about the Church’s teaching on Mary. When she disagrees with it (which is most likely) tell her that when she receives Holy Communion she is saying, by her actions, that she agrees with the Church’s teachings on Mary. If she does agree with the Church’s teaching on Mary (which is unlikely) than find something else that she disagrees with, like the papacy.

Lastly show her that the Catechism tells her that she can not receive communion.

1400 Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240

Regardless of what another lay Catholic told her the Church, herself, says no. She needs to show respect for our faith and by continuing to take communion she is being disrespectful.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Sabda,

I feel like I know this lady like the back of my hand, and in such a short amount of time.

She will say that the rules of the church are the rules of men. That Jesus did not stipulate one had to be a member of the Catholic church in order to receive His Body and Blood. By the way, any time she’s referenced the Body and Blood, she always puts Blood first. Doesn’t matter much, but growing up Catholic and even now, I’ve never heard Blood put before Body.

Don’t get me wrong, Sabda, I’ll try your advice. But I really think its a dead end. I have to get her to accept that Jesus founded an organized, denominational church, then the Catholic church, then the church’s teachings. Its probably easier to convert a traditional Protestant than someone like this.

 

[Todd_Easton]

What does your friend mean by an “organized” Church?

Does she mean a Church where there are human leaders whom she must “obey … and submit to”? Ask her to read Hebrews 13:17.

Does she mean a Church where there are human “pastors and teachers”? Ask her to read Ephesians 4:11.

Does she mean a Church where there are “bishops”, “priests”, and “deacons”?

Ask her to read at the following:

Bishop or overseer (Greek: Episkope):
Acts 20:28;
Philippians 1:1;
1 Timothy 3:1, 2;
Titus 1:7.

Priest, presbyter or elder (Greek: Presbuteros):
Acts 11:30, 14:23; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; 20:17; 21:1;
1 Timothy 4:14, 5:17, 19;
Titus 1:5;
James 5:14;
1 Peter 5:1, 5;
2 John 1:1;
3 John 1:1;
Revelation 4:4,10; 5:5, 6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11, 13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4.

Deacon or helper (Greek: Diakoneo):
1 Philippians 1:1;
1 Timothy 3:8, 10, 12, 13.

 

[cazayoux]

Also … get her a copy of John Martignoni’s “One Church” from the Bible Christian Society … free on the website of the same name (.com).

michel

 

[Sabda]

Sabda,

I feel like I know this lady like the back of my hand, and in such a short amount of time.

She will say that the rules of the church are the rules of men. That Jesus did not stipulate one had to be a member of the Catholic church in order to receive His Body and Blood. By the way, any time she’s referenced the Body and Blood, she always puts Blood first. Doesn’t matter much, but growing up Catholic and even now, I’ve never heard Blood put before Body.

Don’t get me wrong, Sabda, I’ll try your advice. But I really think its a dead end. I have to get her to accept that Jesus founded an organized, denominational church, then the Catholic church, then the church’s teachings. Its probably easier to convert a traditional Protestant than someone like this.

If we don’t have rules than what are the 10 Commandments? Or are we supposed to throw those out the window as well?

Jesus also said that when we have a problem to take it to the Church AFTER you have taken it to other individuals (Matt 18:15-17). Well, how are you supposed to do that if the Church is not an organization? If the Church is simply a bunch of individuals than what happens when those individuals disagree with each other? What then? St Paul also stated that we are to be of one mind and one judgement( 1Cor 1:10). He also urged Timothy not to let others teach a different doctrine (1 Tim 1:3). So what happens when we are not one and have different teachings? Where do you go then? She can not say the Bible because people look at the Bible all the time and they ALWAYS disagree on what the Bible says. You and her for example.

Another thing why is she is willing to except what ONE Catholic says but refuses to except what another Catholic tells her even though the second Catholic is right on the money in regard to the what the Church teaches? Sounds like she liked what Catholic A told her but doesn’t like what Catholic B (you) told her so she is going to disregard Catholic B and stick with what Catholic A told her.

 

[Sabda]

Also … get her a copy of John Martignoni’s “One Church” from the Bible Christian Society … free on the website of the same name (.com).

michel

I second this! John Martignoni is really good. Here is a link to his website. He also has notes that you can use.

 

[inchrist101]

Ask her what she thinks the “Church of Babylon” is.

There are many writings from Paul and such that say “From the Church of Babylon” … What they mean, is the Catholic Church. Babylon was code name for Rome.

Also, she can not take Eucharist without being Baptized within the Church. So you are right, and she is wrong lol and she needs to stop her ways.

The church of Babylon was not the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church was not founded until Constantine took power in the late 300s AD time frame. We really don’t know if Babylon was a code word for Rome. It may have been and if it was Paul was referring to the Christian church that was in Rome where he spent his last days preaching. Christian churches existed all over. They weren’t called Roman Catholic until Constantine took power.

As far as taking communion that woman has every right to take part in the Lord’s supper if she is a believer. I’m a baptized Christian and take communion whenever I attend a Christian service including Catholic. That’s my right as a Christian. Jesus does not tell us we have to be baptized to take part in the Lord’s supper. I’ve also had plenty of Roman Catholic Priests say that you can receive communion in a Catholic church. My grandmother was methodist and attended a Catholic service. When communion was given out she asked if she could receive. The Priest said “Do you believe in God” Then of course you can receive. Catholics need to stop taking this elitist approach to things. I used to be Catholic which is why I left. I felt like I was putting everyone down who wasn’t a Catholic. After reading the Bible there is no such thing as Roman Catholic. There’s one church. The church that Jesus built which is the Christian church. The word catholic means universal by the way. So it doesn’t make sense to say Roman universal church.

 

[inchrist101]

What does your friend mean by an “organized” Church?

Does she mean a Church where there are human leaders whom she must “obey … and submit to”? Ask her to read Hebrews 13:17.

Does she mean a Church where there are human “pastors and teachers”? Ask her to read Ephesians 4:11.

Does she mean a Church where there are “bishops”, “priests”, and “deacons”?

Ask her to read at the following:

Bishop or overseer (Greek: Episkope):
Acts 20:28;
Philippians 1:1;
1 Timothy 3:1, 2;
Titus 1:7.

Priest, presbyter or elder (Greek: Presbuteros):
Acts 11:30, 14:23; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; 20:17; 21:1;
1 Timothy 4:14, 5:17, 19;
Titus 1:5;
James 5:14;
1 Peter 5:1, 5;
2 John 1:1;
3 John 1:1;
Revelation 4:4,10; 5:5, 6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11, 13; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4.

Deacon or helper (Greek: Diakoneo):
1 Philippians 1:1;
1 Timothy 3:8, 10, 12, 13.

It’s interesting that you reference these versus in the Bible. Show me where in these versus that Paul states we have to receive “Holy Orders”. I’ll save you the time. You won’t find it because it doesn’t exist.

 

[inchrist101]

Ask her if she is willing to abide by the rules of a business, school, country, city etc. When she says yes, than ask her why she is intent on breaking the rules in our Church when she has no problem respecting the rules that other groups have.

Tell her to look on the front cover of the missal that is in every pew. They are clear as day about who can and who can not receive.

Secondly she is causing scandal by what she is doing, Jesus had some VERY strong words for those who cause scandal. Also, she is putting a stumbling block in front of others, again Jesus had said NOT to do this.

Lastly ask her how she feels about the Church’s teaching on Mary. When she disagrees with it (which is most likely) tell her that when she receives Holy Communion she is saying, by her actions, that she agrees with the Church’s teachings on Mary. If she does agree with the Church’s teaching on Mary (which is unlikely) than find something else that she disagrees with, like the papacy.

Lastly show her that the Catechism tells her that she can not receive communion.

Regardless of what another lay Catholic told her the Church, herself, says no. She needs to show respect for our faith and by continuing to take communion she is being disrespectful.

Read Acts 2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”

Doesn’t sound like anyone needed holy orders or for that matter needed to be a Priest to distribute communion. The bread is not called communion by the way. It’s bread. We break bread in communion with other people. The Bible does not tell us it has to be consecrated by a Priest or anyone. Any believer in Jesus has the right to participate in His supper.

 

[Sabda]

Read Acts 2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”

Doesn’t sound like anyone needed holy orders or for that matter needed to be a Priest to distribute communion. The bread is not called communion by the way. It’s bread. We break bread in*** communion ***with other people. The Bible does not tell us it has to be consecrated by a Priest or anyone. Any believer in Jesus has the right to participate in His supper.

BINGO!!! What does it mean to be in communion? Can you believe what ever you want so long as you believe that Jesus is God, or is there more to it than that?

I find it extremely disrespectful that you refuse to obey rules that we have set down for the safety of others. I guess those who come over to America can go ahead and murder since they believe it’s ok. Never mind what the laws in America state. When you are in another’s “house” it is considered a sign of honest respect when you agree to obey that person’s rules!

It sounds like you need to study history a little better. The early Christians were adamant about there being a closed communion. You had to share the beliefs or you could not receive. St Justin the Marty (A.D. 148-155) discusses this in his First Apology.

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of **which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. **For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

He is far from being the only one. Secondly the Catholic Church was not started by Constantine. It was known since the first century what the Church was called and that was Catholic. St Ignatius called the Church Catholic in A.D. 110 in his letter to the Smyrnaeans. He also mentions the Eucharist.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

And below that.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

 

[adrift]

They weren’t called Roman Catholic until Constantine took power.

The term Roman Catholic did not take place until the protestant
revolt and it was used as an insulting term. We are Not Roman Catholic we are just Catholic used long before Constantine.

As far as taking communion that woman has every right to take part in the Lord’s supper if she is a believer. I’m a baptized Christian and take communion whenever I attend a Christian service including Catholic.

There is no right. Communion means to be in union. If you do not believe what we believe you are obligated NOT to receive.

After reading the Bible there is no such thing as Roman Catholic. There’s one church. The church that Jesus built which is the Christian church. The word catholic means universal by the way. So it doesn’t make sense to say Roman universal church.

Jesus establish a Church and made Peter the head of it. The Pope is the successor of Peter. Since the name of our Church is Catholic your statement is ignorant of history. The Christian Church is what the Catholic Church IS

 

[FCEGM]

The church of Babylon was not the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church was not founded until Constantine took power in the late 300s AD time frame. . .

Before you continue with such statements, you might like to check out the witness of the earliest post-Apostolic Fathers of the Church whose writings are readily available at a number of websites (Catholic or not), and also available in a great number of books (a few of which I have) which present the written corpus of these Church Fathers. A serious student of Church history (be he a Catholic or not) should have some knowledge of these men (frequently martyrs). It’s quite easy to access their writings if one wants to know the truth of the very Catholic witness of these men (well before Constantine’s supposed creation of the Catholic Church), not just emote from animus arising from ignorance.

Further, if you knew anything about authentic Christian history, you would know that Constantine had little influence, if any, on the doctrines or beliefs of the Catholic Church. All Constantine did was take those pre-existing (universal) beliefs and use them as a “glue” to hold his empire together. Go read the early Church fathers as I’ve suggested. The full-blown Catholic Faith is already there, and there universally, long before the days of Constantine, and that’s because it comes from the Apostles themselves. Constantine did not change the Christian religion, nor did he have the authority to.*If you think otherwise,name one Christian doctrine that he changed.

What Constantine assisted in doing was to help the Church move through a very difficult transition from being a persecuted underground society to being the officially recognized and publicly endorsedFaith of the Roman Empire, i.e., the entire Western world. his had many benefits, and also many shortcomings.* But, what it clearly did not do was change any doctrine which Christians universally*held before the birth of Constantine.Rather, the Faith remained exactly the same.

 

[inchrist101]

I don’t need to brush up on my history. St. Justin the Martyr makes the point that we should believe in Jesus to observe the last supper which is a direct request from Jesus. If you don’t believe then why would you participate? I wouldn’t anymore than you or I as christians would partake in Jewish ceremonies that we don’t believe in. The Catholic church is in no position to tell a Christian that they cannot partake in the Lord’s supper because they are not Catholic. Let’s be clear about what he means by closed communion. Just because some of the early churches decided to follow the Lord’s supper in a particular way doesn’t mean that it is the right way. There is no wrong way if you are a believer. It’s a simple meal of bread and wine symbolic of Jesus body and blood. A priest has no power to turn it into real flesh and blood.

If you want to discuss history then let’s take a look at how the Roman Catholic church (which I used to be a part of by the way) came into being.

I won’t bore you with all the details otherwise we would be here all day. Constantine who was a pagan wanted control of Rome. He basically was on the fence about killing all Christians who existed then just like Domition and Nero did in their times. His leaders wanted him to but he saw the more oppressed that Christians were the more they banded together and the stronger they became. Why?? Because Jesus’ church was meant to survive plain and simple. It couldn’t be destroyed just like the Bible couldn’t be destroyed. So Constantine used it to his advantage. When he successfully took over Rome he declared that Christianity would be the official religion of all Roman empires (the edict of Milan 313 ad). That it would be catholic (lower case “c”) in nature. Catholic means universal. When subsequent Roman leaders saw the power of the church they organized it into a government like structure with cardinals and then the papacy. This gave Rome the ability to rule over territories where their government structure was crumbling but the religious structure was as strong as ever.

The catholic church (capital “c”) did not come into existence until the first split occurred or “schism” as it is best known because the orthodox christians did not see the primacy of the Pope. The next split of course was the protestant split which centered around Martin Luther’s sola scripture among several other objections that he so kindly nailed to the door of the church.

So when you really come down to it the first Christian church was started in Jerusalem and was headed by James as noted in the Acts of the apostles. Neither Peter nor Paul went to Rome to start the church of Jesus there. So the Catholic church (capital “c”) is just one denomination of several other Christian churches. Not the original church as we catholics think or once thought.

I can also tell you one more thing. I attend a generic Christian church now which preaches right from the Bible (no denominational allegiences). I never in my life have felt so dedicated to my faith. My faith has been completely renewed and I give credit to the Lord who answered my prayers. Growing up Catholic and going to a Catholic school for 8 years never impacted my faith like the Christian church I’m attending now has. When I go back to a Catholic service I fall asleep. Everyone basically repeats the same thing over and over. Boring Boring Boring.

 

[inchrist101]

The term Roman Catholic did not take place until the protestant
revolt and it was used as an insulting term. We are Not Roman Catholic we are just Catholic used long before Constantine.

There is no right. Communion means to be in union. If you do not believe what we believe you are obligated NOT to receive.

Jesus establish a Church and made Peter the head of it. The Pope is the successor of Peter. Since the name of our Church is Catholic your statement is ignorant of history. The Christian Church is what the Catholic Church IS

Jesus never made Peter the head of it. The rock of the church is the confession that Peter made as Jesus being the Christ. Isn’t that why we are called Christians. We’re not Peterians. But that’s another argument. I’m not saying the Christian church is not catholic. I’m saying it’s not Roman Catholic capital C. Catholic just means universal. Benedict stated this himself a few weeks ago. Anyone can be a part of the universal church of Jesus as long as they believe. If you don’t believe then why would you partake in communion. You wouldn’t. The church was never called catholic. It was said that it was catholic in nature.

None of this has anything to do with us getting to heaven. As long as we believe we’ll all be together in heaven anyway. Unbelievers have to deal with God.

 

[adrift]

This IS my body This IS my blood

I can’t find symbolism there

Your name is Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it

Whose sins you shall forgive they shall be forgiven whose sins you shall retain they shall be retained/QUOTE

Your history is wanting. Try The Building of Christendom By Warren H. Carroll.
Please do a search on this site. Your false claims have been dealt with many times.

 

[adrift]

Jesus never made Peter the head of it. The rock of the church is the confession that Peter made as Jesus being the Christ. Isn;t that why we are called Christians. We’re not Peterians. If anything James headed the first church in Jerusalem. Peter was the apostle to the Jews and Paul was made Apostle to the Gentiles. By Jesus by the way. I’m not saying the Christian church is not catholic. I’m saying it’s not Roman Catholic capital C. Catholic just means universal. Benedict stated this himself a few weeks ago. Anyone can be a part of the universal church of Jesus as long as they believe. Stop twisting my words.

That claim is not scriptural. You really have to do damage and ignore the following verse that gives Peter the keys to heaven. To see further verification do a search on Peter and Rock.
If you know how to diagram a sentence, do so and you will find that it can only mean Peter IS the rock after all Jesus has just named him Rock.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay, Jesus refers to His church a number of times throughout the Gospels.

I’ve been arguing with someone who says the “church” is the body of believers, not an organized, denominational church, such as our Catholic church.

Well, if this is what she truly believes, then she should not be receiving Holy Communion with us (the visible body of believers); she should be receiving it with them (the invisible body of believers).

Right?

 

[adrift]

Well, then, she should not be receiving Holy Communion with us; she should be receiving it with them.

Right?

RIGHT:thumbsup: