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adrift
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Roman Catholic is not the name of our Church. Look at the Catechism you will see it is titled Catechism of the Catholic Church. Roman IS not there. This is where your history knowledge fails badly.
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inchrist101
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I didn’t say Rome was there. Just making the point that the word Catholic means universal. So are you part of the Catholic church I am? Or are you part of the Roman Catholic church? I just don’t believe in the church in Rome as being the home of the Christian church. It was really started in Jerusalem.
Interesting way to look at it isn’t it. We’re both Christians and we want our church to be catholic in nature. Saying the Catholic church implies Roman Catholic when you speak to people. It’s not Catholic. It’s Christian.
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adrift
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inchrist101
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I’ve read all these and more. The problem is they come from the Catholic Library.
Read this link: letusreason.org/RC6.htm
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adrift
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Your splitting hairs. I am a Catholic of the Latin Rite. I am under the authority of the Pope as all Christians are.
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jmcrae
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The leaders of the Church who were in Jerusalem were taken away in chains to Rome to be tried and martyred. It was in Rome that they chose their successors, to carry on the leadership of the Church and to ensure that the oral tradition would not die out.
Not long after that, Jerusalem was burned to the ground, along with any buildings that the Church may have had there - so, by the time it became possible to return to Jerusalem, they no longer had any desire to, since they had already established buildings in Rome (which today we call the Vatican).
Although the Church’s headquarters are in Rome, we have Dioceses and parishes literally all over the world, in every nation and language, that can trace their Bishop’s leadership back to the first Apostles in an unbroken line.
Is there any other church that can say the same?
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inchrist101
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Not trying to split hairs. As a Christian I don’t consider myself under the authority of anyone accept the Lord. The Pope is just the Bishop/Overseer of the church in Rome just as other Bishops oversee other churches. The Pope does not head up Christianity, Jesus does. Period end of story.
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jmcrae
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Which Bishop is overseeing your church, and from where does he get his authority?
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davidv
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If you allowed the Pope to lead you, you would be a much better Christian.
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Sabda
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It appears we have gone off topic. If you would like to continue discussing this why don’t you start some threads over in the Apologetic section or in the Non-Catholic section? I’m sure everyone would be more than happy to continue this discussion.
BTW, if you are so set in your ways then why are you here? I would think if one was going to a forum that was not of their faith they would more willing to listen to what the people have to say.
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inchrist101
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Jesus did not give the keys to Peter. The keys were given to the church. Think about it logically. Anyone who believes in Jesus goes to heaven as Jesus tells us himself several times. The keys are not physical like to a car or house. What Jesus is saying is he is building a church. The principals of the church are based on the confession that Peter just made which is that Jesus is the Messiah. The keys to heaven are given to the church because Jesus tells us that the only way to God is through Him. Where is God?? In Heaven. The church also has the power to bind and loss hence the statement Jesus made about forgiveness. He wasn’t just giving all this information to Peter and Peter was then the only one with the keys to heaven and all this power. That makes no sense. He was demonstrating what the church was going to be about.
I’ve done plenty of searches on Peter and Rock. You find support for it both ways. I read scripture and interpret what makes sense. Alot of scripture makes sense. Some of it is very confusing as I’m sure you would admit. I don’t deny that Peter was rock because Cephas means rock or stone. But let’s take a look at what Peter tells us himself in scripture:
1 Peter 2: 4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
So who is the rock now? Seems we all are living stones that make up the church with Jesus as the Cornerstone. Peter is just one of those living stones. Not THE stone or rock.
As far as Peter being in charge let’s see what he tells us in scripture:
1 Peter 5: So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, [1] not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; [2] not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
So Peter doesn’t even identify himself as an overseer/bishop.
Read these links when you get time:
bible.ca/cath-peter=pope.htm
historicist.com/articles2/peter.htm
biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/peter_as_pope.php
Peace.
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inchrist101
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We don’t have a Bishop/Overseer role in our church. We have a senior Pastor and several associate Pastors. The church is guided by our elders and served by deacons just as Paul outlined in his letters. There is no need for authority. Jesus tells us himself that we will not exercise authority over one another in the church:
Matthew 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, [3] 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, [4] 28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
This is repeated in Mark and Luke.
Peace.
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inchrist101
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David what makes you think I’m a bad Christian. I don’t think we are supposed to pass judgement on one another my friend.
I’ve been a better Christian since I stopped going to the Catholic church. I consider myself non-denominational. I’m not protestant, Roman Catholic, Jehovas Witness, Born Again etc. etc. I believe and accept Jesus as my savior and try to serve others as best I can.
Peace.
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inchrist101
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It’s not a matter of being so set in my ways. I simply responded to a question regarding original sin and everyone jumped on me. It’s amazing how defensive everyone can be. I was born and raised in a Catholic church. I simply started to read the Bible and found what I thought were many Catholic teachings to be in error or non-scriptural. I like talking with my Catholic brothers and sisters to gain a better understanding of why certain beliefs exist even when they seem contrary to scripture. We should be having good healthy discussions and finding ways of spreading the Gospel of Jesus. Instead all I’ve gotten here is name calling and smart remarks.It appears we have gone off topic. If you would like to continue discussing this why don’t you start some threads over in the Apologetic section or in the Non-Catholic section? I’m sure everyone would be more than happy to continue this discussion.
I work with a Jehovas Witness and we talk all the time. There are plenty of things we disagree on but we never say that the other is outside the church or not a good Christian. One thing we do agree on always is that Jesus is our Savior.
Peace.
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davidv
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inchrist101
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Davd you judged me as soon as you said I would be a better Christian. What kind of a Christian did you think I was.
As far as standard I believe I’m a better Christian based on the standards of our Lord Jesus Christ and what he writes to us in the Bible.
I stopped going to church a long time ago because all Catholic churches bored me to death. I also got very tired of the sexual harassment charges against the Priests which as you have to admit is very embarassing. When a Priest molests a child there’s no excuse. And the church just relocates them and settles for money with the family.
I attend services every sunday now and serve on many of our ministry programs. My faith is alive again thanks to the Bible and the wonderful church I found through friends of ours. That’s the standard I’m referring to. Living my faith not just talking about it. I don’t need the standard of the Catholic church or any church to measure how good or bad my faith is. The church is a conduit for me to Jesus. It’s there for reinforcement. When I went through a very emotional divorce 10 years ago, my priest basically turned his back on me. The Catholic church wants nothing to do with me. I’m not even supposed to take communion there. What kind of Christian attitude is that?
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mercygate
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God love ya, inchrist101. Puh-leeze! If you’re going to snipe at the Catholic Church, at least get your facts straight. This statement is perfectly absurd. Ridiculous. Insupportable. FALSE. Get a history book. One that isn’t published by Jack Chick. One that isn’t published by the Catholic press. Just a decent history book.
Or better yet: how about reading some of the Early Church Fathers: the guys who were IN the “Christian” Church from the year 100 to 400. See if what they say doesn’t make a traceable, documented historical line right up to what the Catholic Church is today.
Please don’t let yourself become just another bitter, fallen away Catholic who knew next to nothing about his faith before he left the Church and now knows even less – and worse – “knows” a lot of garbage that is just plain spurious based on a crass and superficial reading of Scripture.
Scripture makes sense only when read in the heart of the Church.
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inchrist101
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I can assure you I’m not just a bitter person who fell away from the Catholic faith with little knowledge. I was part of the Church for 35 years until I went through an emotional divorce and the church turned it’s back on me.
And I’ve read plenty of history books. I was merely commenting that the church in Babylon may have been the Christian church that was there. But Babylon was only believed to be a code word for Rome. The christian church was always catholic. Catholic meaning universal and with a small “c”. If you read your history you’ll see that after the orthodox split the catholic church small “c” became the Catholic church capital “c”.
I also never read scripture in a superficial way. Just because some folks in the early church established some traditions that can be traced through til today doesn’t mean they’re scripturally based.
Please don’t reply unless you are interested in having a spirited discussion. Scripture makes sense regardless of the church. It tells us how to live our lives.
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mercygate
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One comment only: If you really knew the teaching of the Church, you would not say the things you do. You would not attach these spurious ‘histories’ nor demean the Church Fathers of the first three centuries – who wrote BEFORE the canon of the New Testament was consolidated.
Your “emotional divorce” is doubtless the seed of all this – and none of our business. And if you did not have a deep hunger for God, you would not still be calling yourself a Christian of any kind.
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