Jesus' "church"

[davidv]

Davd you judged me as soon as you said I would be a better Christian. What kind of a Christian did you think I was.

Not so - I hold myself to the same statement - If I did a better job following the instructions of the Pope I would be a better Christian. Other than what you have revealed in your posts I have no idea and I made no assumptions about it.

As far as standard I believe I’m a better Christian based on the standards of our Lord Jesus Christ and what he writes to us in the Bible.

Fair enough - Thank you.

I stopped going to church a long time ago because all Catholic churches bored me to death. I also got very tired of the sexual harassment charges against the Priests which as you have to admit is very embarassing. When a Priest molests a child there’s no excuse. And the church just relocates them and settles for money with the family.

Are the members of your congregation perfect? If not, why would you expect that of Catholics. Seems to me that the blame, if there should be any, is being incorrectly placed.

When I went through a very emotional divorce 10 years ago, my priest basically turned his back on me. The Catholic church wants nothing to do with me.

I am really sorry that you experienced this. But, again I don’t understand why the acts of one person condemns the Church.

I’m not even supposed to take communion there. What kind of Christian attitude is that?

It is a loving one. It keeps those who are not in full communion from making a public statement that contridicts their belief.

 

[Sabda]

I simply started to read the Bible and found what I thought were many Catholic teachings to be in error or non-scriptural. I like talking with my Catholic brothers and sisters to gain a better understanding of why certain beliefs exist even when they seem contrary to scripture. We should be having good healthy discussions and finding ways of spreading the Gospel of Jesus. Instead all I’ve gotten here is name calling and smart remarks.
Peace.

The bolded is nothing more than opinion and I disagree with you. I am a cradle Catholic but I would not say I was raised Catholic. I never attended Catholic school. I had one year of CCD for my First Communion and that was it. I don’t even remember what was taught that year. I look at the Bible and see soooooo many things in there that are soooo CATHOLIC.
You have one person who says they were raised Catholic and sees nothing Catholic about the Bible. You have another person who was not really raised Catholic and sees many things in the Bible that are Catholic. Do you see the problem?

BTW, I have been to Protestant Church’s and experienced the same kind of boredom you speak of. It works both ways. I consider it my fault that I got bored. Instead of looking to see God in that place I choose to be selfish instead.

Oh, and please keep in mind that Jesus said he came for the sinners, not the rightous. The rightous have no need of a doctor but the sinners do. Of course your going to find sinners in the Catholic Church, even among the priests. We are all sinners and Jesus came to save us all.

 

[inchrist101]

The bolded is nothing more than opinion and I disagree with you. I am a cradle Catholic but I would not say I was raised Catholic. I never attended Catholic school. I had one year of CCD for my First Communion and that was it. I don’t even remember what was taught that year. I look at the Bible and see soooooo many things in there that are soooo CATHOLIC.
You have one person who says they were raised Catholic and sees nothing Catholic about the Bible. You have another person who was not really raised Catholic and sees many things in the Bible that are Catholic. Do you see the problem?

BTW, I have been to Protestant Church’s and experienced the same kind of boredom you speak of. It works both ways. I consider it my fault that I got bored. Instead of looking to see God in that place I choose to be selfish instead.

Oh, and please keep in mind that Jesus said he came for the sinners, not the rightous. The rightous have no need of a doctor but the sinners do. Of course your going to find sinners in the Catholic Church, even among the priests. We are all sinners and Jesus came to save us all.

I actually agree with you on protestant churches and yes I do see the problem. Different people see different things and interpret things differently. I’m not Protestant though. I just attend a non-denominational church which has services that are very fullfilling. Jesus meant for us to be one church. The Christian church. He wanted it to be catholic in nature meaning universal. Pope Benedict explained this so well a few weeks ago.

I just believe that the Bible guides the church and not the other way around. The writings of all the biblical scholars precedes anything. Paul’s writings are the oldest as a matter of fact. Even older than the Gospels. Church teachings cannot supercede the Bible. This is where I have a problem with Mary worship and the office of the Pope. Jesus never exalted Mary and never announced Peter as the head of the church. Peter himself in his letters calls himself a fellow Elder and never anywhere in scripture does any writer call Peter the head of the apostles nor the head of the church. I think the early churches relied on him and the other apostles for guidance because they walked with Jesus. We get so many letters from Paul that address false teachings that arose in the church. Look at Galatia and the church in Corinth. This is where I believe the Bible to be such a necessity. Going to Catholic school all my life we were never allowed to read the Bible, or I should say we weren’t supposed to. We were told we weren’t qualified to interpret its teachings.

Anyway I pray always for unity in the church. With only 1/3 of the world believing in Jesus I still get amazed at how many people still reject him.

Peace and God Bless you.

 

[runandsew]

I don’t need to brush up on my history. When he (Constantine) successfully took over Rome he declared that Christianity would be the official religion of all Roman empires (the edict of Milan 313 ad).

I am sorry, but the edict of Miland did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire, it expanded the rights to be a Christian, as well as other non-Christian religions, and it led to Christianity becoming the official religion, but that act would be in the future, Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion. He granted it favors, but did not officially make it the state religion.
In AD 380 emperor Theodosius took the final step and made Christianity the official religion of state

From wikipedia:
The Edict of Milan was a letter that proclaimed religious toleration in the Roman Empire. The letter was issued in 313, shortly after the conclusion of the Diocletian Persecution.

The Edict, in the form of a joint letter to be circulated among the governors of the East,[1] declared that the Empire would be neutral with regard to religious worship, officially removing all obstacles to the practice of Christianity and other religions.[2] It “declared unequivocally that the co-authors of the regulations wanted no action taken against the non-Christian cults.”[3]

Christianity had previously been decriminalized in April 311 by Galerius, who was the first emperor to issue an edict of toleration for all religious creeds, including Christianity.[4] The Christian historian Philip Schaff noted[5] that the second edict went beyond the first edict of 311: “it was a decisive step from hostile neutrality to friendly neutrality and protection, and **prepared the way **for the legal recognition of Christianity, as the religion of the empire.” The wording of the Edict reveals that such developments, however, remained in the future. The letter gives detailed instructions to the governor for the restitution of sequestered Christian property.

 

[jmcrae]

I just attend a non-denominational church which has services that are very fullfilling. Jesus meant for us to be one church. The Christian church. He wanted it to be catholic in nature meaning universal. Pope Benedict explained this so well a few weeks ago.

Yes, this is true. So, why be part of something that isn’t actually in the Church, but is divided away from it?

I just believe that the Bible guides the church and not the other way around.

The Bible came out of the Church; not the other way around. Jesus didn’t hand the Apostles a Bible when He gave them the Great Commission. The New Testament didn’t even exist yet, at that time - the first word of the New Testament wasn’t written down for at least another 20 years after that, and it was not until all but one of the Apostles had died that the last word of it was written.

The writings of all the biblical scholars precedes anything. Paul’s writings are the oldest as a matter of fact. Even older than the Gospels.

St. Paul didn’t begin to write anything until about 56 AD. The Catholic Church and its traditions were well established by that time.

Church teachings cannot supercede the Bible. This is where I have a problem with Mary worship and the office of the Pope.

No good Catholic “worships” Mary. We hold her in high regard, just as Evangelicals hold Billy Graham and other good pastors in high regard.

Jesus never exalted Mary

He gives her the title “Woman” on several occasions, which is the title that Adam gave to Eve, meaning “mother of all the living.”

and never announced Peter as the head of the church.

Yes, he did - John 21:15-19. “Chief shepherd” of the Church is the same thing as head of the Church.

Peter himself in his letters calls himself a fellow Elder …

He is using the same style of speaking that the President is using when he says, “My fellow Americans …” We wouldn’t point to a Presidential speech and say, “See? He says he’s only a fellow American. There is no such thing, therefore, as the Presidency.”

and never anywhere in scripture does any writer call Peter the head of the apostles nor the head of the church.

He is listed at the top of every list of the Apostles, even though he was not the first Apostle to be chosen.

I think the early churches relied on him and the other apostles for guidance because they walked with Jesus.

That’s where they got their authority from.

We get so many letters from Paul that address false teachings that arose in the church. Look at Galatia and the church in Corinth. This is where I believe the Bible to be such a necessity.

Yes, the Bible is certainly important. That’s why the Church produced it.

Going to Catholic school all my life we were never allowed to read the Bible, or I should say we weren’t supposed to. We were told we weren’t qualified to interpret its teachings.

How old were you at the time? I teach Junior High, and believe me, the Bible is certainly required reading for that age group. (Ages 11-14)

 

[Sabda]

I actually agree with you on protestant churches and yes I do see the problem. Different people see different things and interpret things differently. I’m not Protestant though. I just attend a non-denominational church which has services that are very fullfilling.
.

Non-denominational churchs were break offs from Protestant churchs. Around here most are break-aways from the Baptist. I’m sorry but as much as you would like to claim you are simply Christian you can not. The way Christianity is today does not allow you to do so.

I just believe that the Bible guides the church and not the other way around. The writings of all the biblical scholars precedes anything. Paul’s writings are the oldest as a matter of fact. Even older than the Gospels. Church teachings cannot supercede the Bible.

How can the Church be guided by the Bible when the Bible as we know it did not exist for centuries? You can not be guided by something that does not exist.

This is where I have a problem with Mary worship and the office of the Pope. Jesus never exalted Mary and never announced Peter as the head of the church. Peter himself in his letters calls himself a fellow Elder and never anywhere in scripture does any writer call Peter the head of the apostles nor the head of the church.

Once again this comes down to opinion. I look at the Bible and see something completely different. How can the Bible be the only thing that guides us when we both come to a completely different opinion on how Christianity should be when we use that same Bible?

I think the early churches relied on him and the other apostles for guidance because they walked with Jesus. We get so many letters from Paul that address false teachings that arose in the church. Look at Galatia and the church in Corinth. This is where I believe the Bible to be such a necessity.

EXACTLY, there were false teachings then just as there are false teachings now. How do we find out exactly what the false teachings are when everyone is using the Bible to justify their position?

Going to Catholic school all my life we were never allowed to read the Bible, or I should say we weren’t supposed to. We were told we weren’t qualified to interpret its teachings.

There are many Catholics who also went to Catholic school and they would give you a completely different story. They would tell you that they were encouraged to read the Bible. Not to mention there are 4 Biblical readings during each Sunday Mass. So everyone does read from and hear the Bible every Sunday. If Catholics were truly forbidden from reading the Bible than why have so much of the Bible read during each Mass?

Anyway I pray always for unity in the church. With only 1/3 of the world believing in Jesus I still get amazed at how many people still reject him.

Peace and God Bless you

I’m right there with you in prayers for unity. May God bless you also.

 

[mercygate]

I actually agree with you on protestant churches and yes I do see the problem. Different people see different things and interpret things differently. I’m not Protestant though. I just attend a non-denominational church which has services that are very fullfilling. Jesus meant for us to be one church. The Christian church. He wanted it to be catholic in nature meaning universal. Pope Benedict explained this so well a few weeks ago.

I just believe that the Bible guides the church and not the other way around. The writings of all the biblical scholars precedes anything. Paul’s writings are the oldest as a matter of fact. Even older than the Gospels. Church teachings cannot supercede the Bible. This is where I have a problem with Mary worship and the office of the Pope. Jesus never exalted Mary and never announced Peter as the head of the church. Peter himself in his letters calls himself a fellow Elder and never anywhere in scripture does any writer call Peter the head of the apostles nor the head of the church. I think the early churches relied on him and the other apostles for guidance because they walked with Jesus. We get so many letters from Paul that address false teachings that arose in the church. Look at Galatia and the church in Corinth. This is where I believe the Bible to be such a necessity. Going to Catholic school all my life we were never allowed to read the Bible, or I should say we weren’t supposed to. We were told we weren’t qualified to interpret its teachings.

Anyway I pray always for unity in the church. With only 1/3 of the world believing in Jesus I still get amazed at how many people still reject him.

Peace and God Bless you.

Dearly Beloved,

Please, PLEASE, stop saying what “the Catholilc Church teaches!” Mary worship? Office of the Pope? Never ALLOWED to read the Bible? How old are you? Right at the front of every Catholic Bible is an announcement of a special blessing for anyone who spends half an hour in attentive reading of Scripture. Man! From what your teachers said about “not being qualified to interpret its teachings” I would agree with them 100%. You weren’t! They should have given you resources to build your understanding, though. Unless you were 12. My 12-year-olds are clueless.

You say you are not just another bitter ex-Catholic who has run off with a superficial reading of Scripture. I encourage you to read *Letter and Spirit *by Scott Hahn (it’s new but you probably can get it from the library). WHAT a brilliant treatment of Scripture and its relationship to liturgy. It will blow you away! You REALLY have absorbed a LOT of anti-Catholic nonsense. (I’m a former Bible Christian. Been there. Done that.)

Beloved, you are only one good confession away from coming home. Door’s open. Light’s on.

 

[adrift]

adrift;2406007:

I can’t find symbolism there

The gates of hell will never prevail against the church not Peter. Jesus gives the church the ability to bind and lose. Not just the apostles and certainly not just Peter. I guess that’s why we’re called Peterians instead of Christians. Because it’s Peter’s church. Talk about needing a history lesson. Isn’t it interesting that Jesus decides to build a church right after Peter claims that he is the Messiah. Isn’t this the rock the church is built on. The fact that Jesus is our savior. I think so. Keep living in a Catholic Church vaccuum.

refer to post 18 on sentence structure

 

[adrift]

I’ve read all these and more. The problem is they come from the Catholic Library.

Read this link: letusreason.org/RC6.htm

The problem is there from a protestant. See how easy it is to dismiss arguments you can’t refute.

As for your web site, I found many errors to many to deal with in this thread. They really had gyrate around the truth. Reason had little to do with it. Some of their statement were very irrational.

 

[mercygate]

The problem is there from a protestant. See how easy it is to dismiss arguments you can’t refute.

As for your web site, I found many errors to many to deal with in this thread. They really had gyrate around the truth. Reason had little to do with it. Some of their statement were very irrational.

The more time I spend on CAF, the happier I am that I first encountered all of this stuff about Petrine succession and the identity of the Church at The University of Michigan. No political agenda other than to disparage the whole Christian enterprise. I read the ECFs in a Mediaeval history course, purely for background, not to build up the faith I did not yet have. It was the plain history that brought me to the Church – that and the art. I figured that any enterprise that could come up with Chartres, with Roger van der Weyden, with Dante, must have a lot going for it . . . And the rest, as they say, is HISTORY.

 

[Magnum_V8]

I started this thread, and WOW, you guys have been active.

I don’t even know where to begin in response.

Peter…It is simply elementary school language class. Sometimes people “over-think” things, and in this instance its the Protestants over-thinking just to justify their heresy. “You are Rock, and on this Rock I will be my Church…I give you [Rock] the keys of the kingdom of heaven.” Also, early writings show that Peter founded the Church in Rome, and that he died there as well. I would think that at least someone from that first or second century would have contested it were it not true.

Mary…Another Protestant invention claiming that we worship Mary. Not a day in my life have I asked Mary to grant me anything. We ask her to pray for us the same way we do our earthly brethren. They might say we ask for her intercession on this, or that. But asking Suzie Q. in the seat next to us is asking for her intercession…between us and God. No difference.

Interpreting the bible…Wasn’t there a respected Ethiopian who, when asked by Philip? if he understood what he was reading in Isaiah, responded, “how can I if no one tells me?” Wouldn’t this indicate an authoritative teacher? And I don’t remember Jesus being physically present on earth in a capacity to explain scripture. No, He left that authority to His Apostles, and in turn, their successors.

Boredom at Mass…Only if you don’t understand what’s going on. Personally, I guess I like being in the physical presence of Christ. Don’t get me wrong, though, spiritual presence is good too.

Bible, Bible, Bible…First, give me definitive evidence FROM THE BIBLE, NOT YOUR OPINION, that the Bible is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Then tell me who compiled the Bible. And while you’re at it, tell me why the Early Church Fathers are not credible resources. Or maybe you think they are, in which case you’ve established that the Catholic Church was founded long before Constantine.

 

[RedSoxFan]

magnum V8,

Why are you so concerned with this lady? Figure this out and you can figure out how to deal with her. In my opinion you already did all you could reasonably.

 

[Magnum_V8]

I wouldn’t classify it as being “so concerned” with her. She has an opinion I had never heard before. Apparently, though, she’s not the only one that thinks in that manner. It was just a simple debate I had with her on another website, and I figured maybe someone here could shed some light on it.