Jesus commands works?

  • Thread starter Thread starter in_servitude
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I

in_servitude

Guest
I’m having a discussion with my protestant father about Catholicism (I’ve asked him to consider converting, and he was nice enough to say that the door was not completely shut, but not exactly open either).

He has a problem with “works” being required to “be saved.” I did agree that we do not earn our salvation, and any salvation we do receive is a grace.

However, when I read, John 13:34
34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
Click to expand...
Love is something that we “do”. Jesus does not command us strictly to have a feeling. This is portrayed in Paul’s description of “love”, it mostly describes things to do (and not do).

I presume that this fits in the whole “faith without works is meaningless” concept. But, I think that faith in Jesus means that works must follow - otherwise, the direct commands of Jesus are being ignored (which would indicate a lack of faith, in my opinion).

I think that faith in Jesus requires works. Do I have this messed up??

Any (name removed by moderator)ut would be appreciated.
 
Works, per se, do not “save” in themselves.

But those who would be saved are keenly interested in pursuing them.

One of my fave citations:
[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]
Not he who says “Lord, Lord” but rather he who acts gains heaven.

Catholic Scripture on Good Works

[As an aside, the whole Protestant notion of *sola Fide (faith alone) has been turned inside out by those who assert that it doesn’t matter what you believe or to which denomination you belong. Just living a good life is all that matters, they say. I imagine they’ve given up on resolving the hopeless conundrum wrought by P.]
 
Take a look at the Epistle of James. Good works are a natural by-product of faith. Those without good works have a dead faith.

Jesus taught that He is the vine and we are branches, but that we must bear fruit, or we will be cut off and thrown into the fire. He commanded the Apostles to make something: disciples of all nations. He commanded them to baptize, which is both physical and spiritual. Paul teaches about “good works” in numerous places.

Your father may still be adhering to the protestant confusion over the “works” of the Pharisees under the Mosaic Law, which are condemned, and Christian works of charity (love), which are commanded.
 
The actual “saving power” that gives us salvation is by grace alone through Jesus. No power of our own is able to create that saving power, that comes from God alone. But, God allows us to participate in receiving this great gift of salvation by faith, and to live the life as a child of God. Works are a part of the Christian life, and fortunately as Catholics we have the best mapped out journey, courtesy of the Church inspired by God, to give us all the help we need to follow God in truth without any guess work from ourselves.

I like to compare works of a Christian to that of a spouse. The love alone is not enough to sustain a marriage, it takes work. It requires your time, striving to be good, faithful, support, honesty, loyalty, etc. And when we fail and fall short we should be willing to turn from our errors and become the person we need to be. That is work! Without it it falls apart.
 
I would approach it like this…
Strictly speaking works are not required to be saved and the Church does not teach that they are…
HOWEVER…works are a sign that the faith we hold is a living and saving faith. A lack of works demonstrates that our faith is dead and a dead faith cannot save…

So there is an interconnectedness here that must be recognized and respected. It is faith that saves, but without works - what faith is there.

Then remind you dad that:
21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ (Mt 7:21-23)
If people who cast out demons and prophesy and do “many mighty works” are condemned…What is it that is missing…How did they not "do the Will of the Father if they did indeed call Jesus Lord…

Turn then to (Matthew 25:31-46) Where Jesus separates the saved from the condemned, not by gifts or “mighty works” but by the smallest acts of charity…By their Love…
“I was Hungry…”

One more point too…
The key to this matter is Love.
Read 1 Cor 13:1-13 with your dad and discuss…
Love forces faith into action. Without Love we are nothing…

Sorry if I sound a bit scattered…

Peace
James
 
=in_servitude;9309259]I’m having a discussion with my protestant father about Catholicism (I’ve asked him to consider converting, and he was nice enough to say that the door was not completely shut, but not exactly open either).
Click to expand...
He has a problem with “works” being required to “be saved.” I did agree that we do not earn our salvation, and any salvation we do receive is a grace.
Click to expand...
However, when I read, John 13:34
Click to expand...
Love is something that we “do”. Jesus does not command us strictly to have a feeling. This is portrayed in Paul’s description of “love”, it mostly describes things to do (and not do).
Click to expand...
Your understanding is RIGHT-ON:)

While “works” are required they, they, even very good works [short of mytardom] will not “buy us heaven”

Good works flow naturally our of love Of and For God; and by mandate to each other. BUT they are just one of the many things required for ones salvation.

Baptism: John 3:5

Obedience to the Commandments [which as I’m sure you know, are catagories of sins; not “thee list of sins.” Mt. 19:17

The Eucharist [which is only available at a Catholic Church] John 6

Confession of sins. No one can die with unconfessed and unforgiven sins and expect Eternal Life. 1st. Jn.1: 5-6; 1st. Jn.5: 16-17 and John 20:19-23… THIS IS the ONLY manner approved by Christ.

Somehow mortal men have conceived that they have a right [unforuned in the bible] to there own set of faith beliefs. NOT TRUE.

Not one time in the bible can one point to God EVER teaching belief in
  1. More than One God: Him
  2. More than ONLY One set of faith beliefs: HIS
  3. More than One Chosen People
    OT = the Hebrew nations
    NT = the Catholic Church
John.14: 26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

ONLY the CC has this Mandate from Christ Himself: Mt. 28:16, 18-20 "Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Which in an absolute sense requires Succession of authority in order to be fulfilled.🙂

ONLY ONE!

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” **

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith MEANS Only 1 set of beliefs], one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift".

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;[Singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord

I’ll keep you and dad in my prayers, If i CAN OFFER ANY ASSISTANCE JUST LET ME KNOW?

God Bless,
pat/PJM
 
From Mark 10:
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Click to expand...
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’[d]”
Click to expand...
20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
Click to expand...
21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Click to expand...
22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Click to expand...
It’s easy to read this and think, “Hey! It’s all about Jesus saying not to be attached to your material possessions.” And that’s true, in a way. But it’s equally telling that Jesus didn’t say, “Just have faith in me and poof, you’re saved!” 😛 “Following Jesus” is a very active thing, and arguably more a request for works that shape your entire life than it is for just a feeling or a mindset or an altar-call.
 
I compiled all of the points here and sent an e-mail to my dad. He works better when he can read an e-mail and think about it rather than be caught flat footed in a conversation. Thanks!!
 
There is so much discussion of this, even in the Bible. This is an indication that it is a complicated subject.

(I’m not saying that I understand it completely, either.)

I’m currently reading about this in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, the volume on Galatians. That is virtually the whole point of Paul’s writing, is for the Galatians to stop following the Judaizers, who are telling them that they must be circumcized, etc.

So, the first thing that is clear, that “works” has the definition of doing things that are demanded by the Mosaic Law. Clearly, it is faith and not those works that bring one into the life of Christ. As Paul says (I’m paraphrasing a bit here) if those works bring salvation then Christ died for nothing.

But, I think Protestants expand or generalize so that they say that it is faith alone and NOT ANY works that affect our salvation.

I think that needs a lot of discussion. If we have faith in Christ, then we have to obey his commands – avoid evil and do good. The NT tells us a lot of things we should do to live a Christian life. If we don’t do them, do we really have faith in Christ?

One idea from the commentary on Galatians:
  1. Paul does not deny that good works are called for.
  2. Christian good works are commended, such as the collection of money for the poor in Jerusalem – converts from Judaism whose property has been confiscated or destroyed, or who have given all for the common good.
Certainly the parable of the Good Samaritan shows that Christ commands us to have concerns for others.

We are commanded to love God with all our heart, with all our soul, with all our mind, and with all our strength. What does “all our strength” mean? This is an OT command as well as a NT command. My Jewish commentary says that “loving God with all our strength” includes possibly giving up one’s personal wealth to perform some good works.

Paul himself is an example of Christian good works. It cannot be doubted that his calling as an apostle to the Gentiles demanded works from him. So, good works have a vital role for an apostle, namely, spreading the gospel.

The heresy of Pelagianism is that we work our way into heaven. This is clearly rejected.
 
One of my favorite faith-without-works scenarios, is when people fight bitterly over details about their faith. They are simultaneously proclaiming their faith but doing evil works of Bad Attitude.

So to me one of the first ways to tell if someone’s faith is backed by works is by whether they tell you about their faith with a humble and loving and accepting, v. haughty and adversarial attitude. If they can’t talk about it without getting upset, that says a lot to me.

I am happy to hear your father is open-minded on faith issues. 🙂

Alan
 
=midori_;9309688]From Mark 10:
Click to expand...
It’s easy to read this and think, “Hey! It’s all about Jesus saying not to be attached to your material possessions.” And that’s true, in a way. But it’s equally telling that Jesus didn’t say, “Just have faith in me and poof, you’re saved!” 😛 “Following Jesus” is a very active thing, and arguably more a request for works that shape your entire life than it is for just a feeling or a mindset or an altar-call.
Click to expand...
My friend think about it:rolleyes:

Can God do what God did; being a God of perfect Justice and Fairness and not DEMAND more than only belief. Look at the record of judgments in the OT… God being Perfect cannot and does not change:)

**Phil.2: 8 “**And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me]. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Exod.15: 26 “saying, “If you will diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give heed to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases upon you which I put upon the Egyptians; for I am the LORD, your healer.”

**Lev. 22: 31 **"So you shall keep my commandments and do them: I am the LORD.”

Lev. 26:14-16 "But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments, if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, I will do this to you: I will appoint over you sudden terror, consumption, and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it”

Jn. 14: 21 “He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

1st. Jn. 2: 3-4 “And by this we may be sure that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him”

**1st. Jn. 3: 22,24 **“and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us”

AND THESE MY FRIEND IS WHY GOD COMMANDS, AND INSTITUTED THE ONLY MANNER HE WILL ACCEPT FOR FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS

**Jn. 20:19-23 **On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

God Bless you,
pat/PJM
 
The famous verse from Romans 3, “28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law”, is often truncated - in the mind if not in actual quotation - to exclude the part “of law”…so that it becomes the infamous “justified by faith apart from works” error.

But consider how the modifier, “of Law” affects what is being said here.

One can “obey the law” without being in accord with the law…
Once can be in accord with the “law” without being in accord with the principles of the law.

It seems to me that “works of law” here is expressing this type of idea. That if you do something “because it is the law” - but your heart isn’t in it (no true conversion) - it really serves no (salvific) purpose.

Look at what Paul says in 1 Cor 13 about the relationship of faith and love…
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
If I have not Love, I am, I gain, nothing
Jesus speaks most eloquently to this fact in Mt 7:21-29 where people who have presented with “gifts of the spirit” are none the less condemned as not having done the “Will of the Father”. This is clarified in Mt 25:31-46 where those who are saved are the ones who “did to the least of the brethren”…

So - in short… we ARE Justified by by faith apart from “works” done for the sake of law but not apart from works done for the sake of Love…Which is what James points out in his letter.

Peace
James
 
There is a difference between “works of law” which are compulsory works of flesh, and voluntary works of a liberated spirit. Paul never criticized “Good works”. Only “Works of law”. In fact, it does not matter which law is applied: Mosaic, Catholic, Civil etc.

Trying to be good by conforming to a law always leads to hypocrisy, because the source of such goodness is egoistic search of a “good image” and not love.
 
Shlomo said:
There is a difference between “works of law” which are compulsory works of flesh, and voluntary works of a liberated spirit. Paul never criticized “Good works”. Only “Works of law”. In fact, it does not matter which law is applied: Mosaic, Catholic, Civil etc.

Trying to be good by conforming to a law always leads to hypocrisy, because the source of such goodness is egoistic search of a “good image” and not love.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Shlomo said:
There is a difference between “works of law” which are compulsory works of flesh, and voluntary works of a liberated spirit. Paul never criticized “Good works”. Only “Works of law”. In fact, it does not matter which law is applied: Mosaic, Catholic, Civil etc.

Trying to be good by conforming to a law always leads to hypocrisy, because the source of such goodness is egoistic search of a “good image” and not love.
Click to expand...
There were many practices that were Mosaic in nature that were a part of the Jewish culture. Paul saw that those practices were going to hinder the Gentile’s acceptance of Jesus and what Jesus taught. So, for the Gentiles to take on both the teaching of Jesus (and following those new rules) and the other Mosaic practices (most notably, circumcision) was going to cause too much rejection to Christianity.

Paul took his case to Jerusalem and it was Peter who eventually made the ultimate decision to abandon the Mosaic practices.

Jesus commands works. So, for anyone who has faith in Jesus - that faith is nothing for that person unless they are doing what Jesus commands. James Ch2, 14-26

There are laws to obey as directed by Jesus, directions to follow as given by Jesus, commandments to uphold as set forth by Jesus. They are compulsory. Should a person choose to reject those calls to work, that person’s rejection is actually a rejection of Jesus.

First - faith in Jesus. Then, living the faith by works through that faith.
 
Shlomo said:
There is a difference between “works of law” which are compulsory works of flesh, and voluntary works of a liberated spirit. Paul never criticized “Good works”. Only “Works of law”. In fact, it does not matter which law is applied: Mosaic, Catholic, Civil etc.

Trying to be good by conforming to a law always leads to hypocrisy, because the source of such goodness is egoistic search of a “good image” and not love.
Click to expand...
While your conclusion here is certainly possible and there are those who fall into this, your blanket declaration that it always leads to hypocrisy is false…It does NOT always lead to hypocrisy.

The person who becomes Catholic, or who renews their commitment to Christ in the Church, begins at the point of belief - of faith - a faith freely accepted. This is a crucial aspect to keep in mind. For we all know that works alone are insufficient.
The rules (Law) of the Church are disciplines provided for the help of the person on their spiritual journey.
The person - especially a “new” Christian - one who is spiritually immature - might say to themselves, “There is so much I don’t understand. I will commit myself to obeying the discipline of the Church in order to become more conformed to Christ.”
Such commitment and obedience in order to be 'good" works within the person to build up their spirit. To aid in their understanding.
It’s not unlike a person training for the Olympic team. They use many different disciplines and exercises, both physical and mental for a larger purpose. To be the best that they can be. In the Olympics, it is for the honor of being invited to represent the country, in faith, it is for the honor of serving our God more fully and being invited into heaven.

Peace
James
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top