Jesus' crucifixion

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Shalom Justice , is that all you came with to divert any attention from allah’s trick of the millenium?

Mr. inJESUS,

My reply was in response to your statement “Jews are converting…” to show you the other side of the coin that not just oridinary Christians but very learned ones of Christiandom too are REVERTING to ISLAM. No wonder Islam is the fastest-growing religion (as per West’s Media reports such as BBC, Washington Post etc.).

O.K get back to the topic of this thread, then.

Hebrews 5:7
The New American Bible

**In the days when he [Jesus] was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. **
usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews5.htm ]

Now, I challenge Christians to come forward and contradict this verse of New Testament and say that Jesus prayers were not heard by the one who was able to save him from death, and he (God) let Jesus die by totally rejecting/ignoring Jesus’ prayers and supplictions with loud cries and tears.!!!

.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Hola Justice2006,
I have read Hebrews 5:7 and come to a different conclusion. Here are some points for discussion:

1. The verse is not specifically in reference to the crucifixion.
2. The definition of ‘saving from death’ could apply to the resurrection.
3. The praying with loud cries and tears may not have been in relation to the crucifixion.

Hebrews is in relation to the Priesthood and not in relation to the Crucifixion. Hope this helps the discussion along.

Hasta la vista,
Cid

 

[JimG]

Justice2006:

Now, I challenge Christians to come forward and contradict this verse of New Testament and say that Jesus prayers were not heard by the one who was able to save him from death, and he (God) let Jesus die by totally rejecting/ignoring Jesus’ prayers and supplictions with loud cries and tears.!!!.

I’m happy to see that you have studying the Epistle to the Hebrews. Have you studied the entire letter? Is it your belief because of the verse quoted above that the author of this Epistle did not think that Jesus had died? If so, it is strange that he would say earlier in that same Epistle (Hebrews 2:9) that “we do see Jesus crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death.”

 

[melbourne_guy]

According to islam why would the jews and romans even want to kill jesus in the first place?

 

[Justice2006]

melbourne_guy:

According to islam why would the jews and romans even want to kill jesus in the first place?

Because “whenever any Messenger came to the Jews, with a thing which was against their desires, they either treated him as a liar or slew him:”

Surah 5:70-The Koran
We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

---

Matthew 23:37-39- The New American Bible
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’"
[usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm])

The Jews were killers of their the Prophets. Jesus doesn’t have to claim to be God to incite Jews to kill him. Him being a Prophet of God or claiming to be a man approved of God – that alone is “good enough” for the Jews to attempt to kill him. By the way Jesus did say before that he was sent by God (meaning a Messenger/Prophet of God).

.

 

[inJESUS]

Mr. inJESUS,

My reply was in response to your statement “Jews are converting…”

to show you the other side of the coin that not just oridinary Christians but very learned ones of Christiandom too are REVERTING to ISLAM. No wonder Islam is the fastest-growing religion (as per West’s Media reports such as BBC, Washington Post etc.). Hellooo …well, it’s a different topic coz i was talking about THE JEWS who historically insulted and killed Jesus who are converting
As to your other sentence, i can give you links about learned muslims even sheikh converting to Christianity…so just drop this childish behavior.

O.K get back to the topic of this thread, then.

Hebrews 5:7

The New American Bible

**In the days when he [Jesus] was in the flesh, he offered prayers ** and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
usccb.org/nab/bible/hebrews/hebrews5.htm ]

Now, I challenge Christians to come forward and contradict this verse of New Testament and say that Jesus prayers were not heard by the one who was able to save him from death, and he (God) let Jesus die by totally rejecting/ignoring Jesus’ prayers and supplictions with loud cries and tears.!!!

. very easy, Jesus himself predicted his death and resurrection before his cry …but oh !! wait a minute inJesus ! the Bible is corrupt !!

Justice, do not challenge when you CANNOT meet the challenge.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

Because “whenever any Messenger came to the Jews, with a thing which was against their desires, they either treated him as a liar or slew him:”

Surah 5:70-The Koran
We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

---

Matthew 23:37-39- The New American Bible
**“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets ** and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
[usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm])

The Jews were killers of their the Prophets. Jesus doesn’t have to claim to be God to incite Jews to kill him. Him being a Prophet of God or claiming to be a man approved of God – that alone is “good enough” for the Jews to attempt to kill him. By the way Jesus did say before that he was sent by God (meaning a Messenger/Prophet of God).

.

well yes Jews did kill some but DID NOT kill others as well…so Jesus should have done something to deserve being called “blasphemous” who “forgives sins on his authority” and "who :being a mere mortal, equals himself to God.

But who cares, the Bible is corrupt , isnt it, Justice?

 

[George_Waters]

Justice2006:

Because “whenever any Messenger came to the Jews, with a thing which was against their desires, they either treated him as a liar or slew him:”

Surah 5:70-The Koran
We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew.

---

Matthew 23:37-39- The New American Bible
**“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets ** and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
[usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm]](http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew23.htm])

The Jews were killers of their the Prophets. Jesus doesn’t have to claim to be God to incite Jews to kill him. Him being a Prophet of God or claiming to be a man approved of God – that alone is “good enough” for the Jews to attempt to kill him. By the way Jesus did say before that he was sent by God (meaning a Messenger/Prophet of God).

.

Since Islam teaches that the Bible is corrupt why are you quoting from it to support your agenda?

If the Bible is corrupt than it is not a reliable source. Yet you have quoted from it as a reliable source and if the Bible is a reliable source than Islam is what is corrupt. So which one is it?

Let’s assume you claim the Bible is corrupt. What evidence of corruption can you offer that proves the invalidity of the Bible? Do you have a pre-biblical source or even a source contemporary to the Bible as evidence? How about a Muslim work from the past 1400 years that can show us each addition, change and deletion? Nothing in 1400 years? Just the Quran? Even in Junior High School a research paper with only one source is considered unacceptable.

If you wish to prove the truth of Islam at the expense of Christianity than you need to quit trying to warp the meaning of the Bible to fit your agenda and start offering solid evidence.

By the way… that me be your opinion of what the meaning is, but that is all it is, your opinion.

 

[inJESUS]

Since Islam teaches that the Bible is corrupt why are you quoting from it to support your agenda?

If the Bible is corrupt than it is not a reliable source. Yet you have quoted from it as a reliable source and if the Bible is a reliable source than Islam is what is corrupt. So which one is it?

only the ones that correspond with islam which are rare

Let’s assume you claim the Bible is corrupt.

the quran says that allah will preserve the Bible…

What evidence of corruption can you offer that proves the invalidity of the Bible?

speculations about variable translations and that the original was lost

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

the quran says that allah will preserve the Bible…

Mr. inJESUS,

Where in the Koran, Allah says that He will preserve the Bible?

And by Bible, what do you mean? Which version of the Bible, Allah says will preserve it?

1. *The King James Bible * of 1611 of Protestants which is based on “pick & choose” method, or
2. The New King James Version of the Bible of 66 Books or
3. **The Douay Rheims Bible ** of Catholics of 72~74 Books, which says Jesus is Son of God in Acts 3:26, or
4. The New American Bible of Catholics which denies the Jesus being Son of God in Acts 3:26 and also rejected 1 John 5:7, or
5. *The New World Translation * (Bible of Jehovas Witnesses) or
6. The Ethiopean Bible which has 84 Books, or
7. The NIV Bible, or
8. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible of 1952 print, which had thrown out so many verses, passages of King James and RCC Bible?
9. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible of 1971 print, which put back those verses and passages when some Chruch denominations agitated against 1952 version? or
10. The Message Bible which is paraphrasic, or
11. …This list is very looooooooong…and not to mention the Book of Mormon…
    and also not to mention those so-called 24,000 ancient/most ancient manuscripts of the Bible from which all these various translations came into being, which manuscript, Allah promised to preserve ? because no two of these are identical.

So please tell me which version of the Bible, Allah promised to preserve in the Koran of Muslims and where in the Koran?

.

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Hellooo …well, it’s a different topic coz i was talking about THE JEWS

who historically insulted and killed Jesus who are converting .

Hellooo Mr. inJESUS,

You mean those JEWS, killed our God Almighty ???

And now after 2000 years they realised/realising that they killed the wrong person (The God Almighty) by mistake or knowingly, who actually created them and whop was and is **The Creator ** of whole Universe.???

Woooooow!!!, those killers of God Almighty must be more powerfull people than God Almighty, No??

Now tell me the power those Jewish killers had which made them kill our God Almighty, was given by who? After they killed our God Almighty, do they still had that power?

But howcome these most powerfull people who killed our God Almighty, were so helpless during the ruling period of Holy Infallible Papacy and Adolf Hitler?

Let me ask you also, when our God Almighty who is IMMORTAL , ETERNAL and INVISIBLE, died for whole three days and three nights and discended to the HELL by becoming a curse:

**Who took the dead body of God Almighty to the Hell?

During His death period, all those babies who were born in the whole world, created by who?

Whose curse was on Him, when He Himself was God Almighty?**

Please answer all questions. Thankx.

.

 

[Giovanni]

Justice2006, you are not making any sense.

 

[inJESUS]

Mr. inJESUS,

Where in the Koran, Allah says that He will preserve the Bible

? Shalom i already gave you the verses under another thread- moreover, mohammad often praised the Bible which means it was NOT corrupt, at least during his time, which means it was never corrupt; finally, the Dead Sea scrolls proved him a pathetic liar.

And by Bible

, what do you mean? Which version of the Bible, Allah says will preserve it? The Bible of Jews and Christians, which means God’s word will be preserved, which means no one can corrupt God’s word, which means the Bible is truthful unless allah is not omnipotent.

As to the rest of your post, you simply do not know what you are talking about.

So please tell me which version of the Bible

, Allah promised to preserve in the Koran of Muslims and where in the Koran? he promised to preserve THE BIBLE and he did not specify which means the Bible at mohammad’s time which means the same Bible we have now. If God says this, no one can change his promise.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice2006:

inJESUS:

Hellooo Mr. inJESUS,

You mean those JEWS, killed our God Almighty ???

And now after 2000 years they realised/realising that they killed the wrong person (The God Almighty) by mistake or knowingly, who actually created them and whop was and is **The Creator ** of whole Universe.???

Woooooow!!!, those killers of God Almighty must be more powerfull people than God Almighty, No??

Now tell me the power those Jewish killers had which made them kill our God Almighty, was given by who? After they killed our God Almighty, do they still had that power?

But howcome these most powerfull people who killed our God Almighty, were so helpless during the ruling period of Holy Infallible Papacy and Adolf Hitler?

Let me ask you also, when our God Almighty who is IMMORTAL , ETERNAL and INVISIBLE, died for whole three days and three nights and discended to the HELL by becoming a curse:

**Who took the dead body of God Almighty to the Hell?

During His death period, all those babies who were born in the whole world, created by who?

Whose curse was on Him, when He Himself was God Almighty?**

Please answer all questions. Thankx.

.

learn a bit and stop making a joke of your posts; they make absolutely no sense coz you simply understand nothing.

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Justice2006:

learn a bit and stop making a joke of your posts; they make absolutely no sense coz you simply understand nothing.

Mr. inJESUS,

Whats wrong with the questions I asked?

You claimed that **"THE JEWS …historically insulted and killed Jesus who are [now] converting " ** Right??

So, I simply asked: by saying this, if you meant THE JEWS did kill God Almighty? Don’t you believe that Jesus was God Almighty?

Now, why THE JEWS were after Jesus’ life and then did “kill” him (God Almighty) through “crucifixion”? If you say: “the reason THE JEWS killed Jesus, because he claimed to be God Almighty”, then I will ask you with all due respect:

**- Mr. inJESUS, did the previous prophets (prior to Jesus) claim Godhood? If not, why did the Jews kill them?

• After the death of Jesus (as God Almighty), who** took His “dead” body to the Hell? Because you believe that Jesus must die as a God in order to “carry” the “sins” of the whole sinfull world and you also believe that he discended to Hell, No?

Now:

• During the “death period” of God Almighty, all those babies of men and animals who were born in the whole world, were created by who? Because I assume you believe that you do believe that it is God Almighty who creates everything, No?

Then:

• Whose curse was on God Almighty, when He Himself was God Almighty? Because you also beleive that God became a “curse” for you (Catholics) to “save” you. So, if Jesus himself is God Almighty, then whose “curse” was upon Him? Curse of Jews? Curse of sinfull Catholics? Curse of righteous Catholics? Curse of non-Catholics?

If you cannot answer, then let other learned Catholics answer. Simply saying my questions “make absolutely no sense” is not going to change the absurdity of believing in a **Dead God Almighty ** ( even if His death was for three days and three nights *only * and by becoming a “curse” He discended into Hell ).

Now:

**-- If the person on the Cross was indeed God ** Almighty, then He did not die at all because God Almighty is Eternal and Immortal. He is not a Creator but THE CREATOR. He is UNCREATED. And since God is Invisible too and no human can seen Him, thus the person on the Cross was anything but God Almighty.

– If the person on the Cross did indeed die on the Cross then he was not God at all. Then, if he was not God, then your Catholic Christian faith is in vain, baseless.

If you say, the man on the Cross was both-God Almighty and a man, even then these questions arised:

- What part of him died?, God Almighty part? or a god ** (with small “g”) or a Son of Man ** or a man approved of God, or **a Servant ** or **a son of Man ** (as mentioned in Job 25-4)?​

.

 

[JimG]

Death consists in the separation of the body and soul.

When a man dies, his body goes to the grave, but his soul still lives. We say he is dead, because his body is no longer animated by his soul.

So, since Jesus is a divine Person who had both a divine nature and a human nature, his death means the same as it does for any man: His body and soul are separated. That has absolutely no effect on his divine nature, which is eternal and immutable.

At the resurrection, his human soul was reunited with his human body. So yes, he experienced death just as any of us. But his divine nature cannot die. The universe is safe.

 

[inJESUS]

Justice, did you ever hear that Jesus was human 100% as well? it is not God who died, it is Jesus who took a human body.the human body of Jesus died .God does not die.

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

Justice, did you ever hear that Jesus was human 100% as well? it is not God who died, it is Jesus who took a human body.the human body of Jesus died .God does not die.

Mr. inJESUS,

WOW!!..Are you sure Jesus did not die as a God?

Are you saying that the person on the Cross was not God:
**- while dying and

• when he was died and
• when he raised from the dead?**

So Jesus’ died as a man?!! Now:

**- Does this death of a man mean anything in Christian theology? I mean death of a single man can “save” you and the whole humanity from the so-called “sins” (that they actually never committed)?

• Are you sure what you said in the above post is what you** really ** believe in? or
• Are you trying to either deceive yourself or others by admitting the clear falsehood of your Catholic dogma/faith?**

.

 

[aaronjmagnan]

Just to correct the post on the New American Bible, Acts 3:26 says that God raised up his servant…but does not mention the Son of God at all. And the Son is the servant.
And 1 John 5:7 simply says “So there are three that testify.”

Neither mentions the Son, or Jesus’ status as the son.

If I am arrogant, I have a lot to say.

But in humility, I’ll simply say, “I’m confused.”

And the mystery, thank God, is in the fact that God died as a human, and was raised from the dead. He was both God and Man, and he suffered the death of man, and he maintained the everlasting life of God.

God bless,
Aaron

 

[JimG]

aaronjmagnan:

And the mystery, thank God, is in the fact that God died as a human, and was raised from the dead. He was both God and Man, and he suffered the death of man, and he maintained the everlasting life of God.

God bless,
Aaron

Amen to that. Because he was human, he could atone for the sins of humanity. Because he was God, his atonement had infinite value.