Jesus' crucifixion

[LilyM]

Justice2006:

**- Does this death of a man mean anything in Christian theology? I mean death of a single man can “save” you and the whole humanity from the so-called “sins” (that they actually never committed)?

• Are you sure what you said in the above post is what you** really **** believe in? or
• Are you trying to either deceive yourself or others by admitting the clear falsehood of your Catholic dogma/faith?

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You obviously are not capable of getting your head around the theoretical concept of the Incarnation. It should be reasonably easy - even the most uneducated Hindu could explain to you what having God come to earth in human form means. If they can understand it and you can’t clearly your education is seriously lacking.

As I’ve pointed out in other posts (which I notice you haven’t answered), the Jewish prophet Isaiah certainly believed God would at some point come to earth in human form. For the sake of my sanity, please just read Isaiah 9:6, or search through my posts in this and your other threads to find the quote. So if we have both the Jews and the Christians understanding that God would come to earth in human form, then it really seems to be Islam which fails to understand the nature of our (allegedly) common God, no?

As for Jesus’ death, you also clearly know nothing about Judaism in his time. Sins of the Jews were mostly required to be atoned for by what we call ‘bloody’ sacrifice - of animals. Read Leviticus 16:21 - every year a special ceremony was held where a sacrificial goat was ritually laden with the sins of the whole Jewish community. This is in fact where we get our term ‘scapegoat’ from.

So it is quite appropriate that Jesus become the ultimate type of such sacrifice - firstly because he was a human being, secondly because he was ALSO God (please, please, it can’t be SO hard to at least in theory grasp the concept of a being who is simultaneously human and divine, or are you really so blinkered in your thinking).

And please stop insulting us by calling Christianity ‘clearly false’. A lot of us on these posts (myself included) have tried to be as civilised, open, honest, logical and comprehensive in our explanations of Christianity as possible in the face of your wilful misconstruction, misunderstanding AND insulting attempts to convert us. I for one find myself learning more about my own faith and more confirmed in Christianity by the terrible example of Muslim thinking you provide, so you’re shooting yourself in the foot by continuing.

 

[Justice2006]

LilyM:

As I’ve pointed out in other posts (which I notice you haven’t answered), the Jewish prophet Isaiah certainly believed God would at some point come to earth in human form. For the sake of my sanity, please just read Isaiah 9:6, or search through my posts in this and your other threads to find the quote. So if we have both the Jews and the Christians understanding that God would come to earth in human form, then it really seems to be Islam which fails to understand the nature of our (allegedly) common God, no?

You are wrong. Because the very premise of your argument is baseless because your Bible (I don’t know which version out of thousands of manuscripts) you follow, is not the 100% Word of God. It has later insertions, ommisions and interpolations that caused clear contradictions, inconsistencies, improbabilities and scientific errors on top of that.

Any verse that contradicts the main objective/purpose/mission of any Prophet of God must be regarded as interpolation. Since the text of any version of the various Bibles is tampered with, thus you cannot just take one or two verses from here and there from OT or NT and make an objective argument because the very foundation of your argument is subjective/unreliable.

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[LilyM]

Justice2006:

You are wrong. Because the very premise of your argument is baseless because your Bible (I don’t know which version out of thousands of manuscripts) you follow, is not the 100% Word of God. It has later insertions, ommisions and interpolations that caused clear contradictions, inconsistencies, improbabilities and scientific errors on top of that.

Any verse that contradicts the main objective/purpose/mission of any Prophet of God must be regarded as interpolation. Since the text of any version of the various Bibles is tampered with, thus you cannot just take one or two verses from here and there from OT or NT and make an objective argument because the very foundation of your argument is subjective/unreliable.

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WHICH premise of WHICH of my arguments? Thanks to God I have a brain and don’t rehash the same line endlessly as you do.

WHAT specific lines/sections of the Bible is insertion or ommission or interpolation? WHO says that it is? WHAT evidence do they provide? WHAT hidden agendas may they have or not have? Have you asked any Jews whether my line from Isaiah is correct or not? I suspect not. Have you asked them whether they believe God cannot or never would come to earth in human form? Again I suspect not.

See if you could answer all those questions then we could have a more reasoned and logical argument instead of just a slanging match. And I don’t see you quoting more than a line or two of the Bible at a time yourself. I suspect you haven’t read it as a whole

And of course your counterargument is what - that the Koran is perfectly consistent and logical (I would hope so if it was all written by one man, sadly it seems to have its own problems of internal consistency and interpretation) and IT doesn’t say Jesus was crucified therefore he wasn’t? Isn’t that the very definition of subjective and unreliable?

I find the Bible believable BECAUSE it was written slowly, one section at a time, by numerous people who essentially agreed with each other even though widely separated by time and geography, whose writings were widely discussed, criticised and analyzed and picked over for hundreds of years and THEN accepted as truth. Truth almost never comes as a big flash of lightning from the sky you know, even religious truth.

 

[Justice2006]

LilyM:

So if we have both the Jews and the Christians understanding that God would come to earth in human form, then it really seems to be Islam which fails to understand the nature of our (allegedly) common God, no?.

Ms LilyM,

Excuse me…here is what Jews believe:

B. MAN AS GOD?

**Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form.
God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not a mortal” (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)**

Taken from: **Why Don’t Jews Believe in Jesus?
For 2,000 years, Jews have rejected the Christian idea of Jesus as messiah. Why?[simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#5]

So, Messiah of Jews is no more than a human being with no divinity. Jewish concept of God is very similar to Islamic concept.

On the other hand most Christians attribute their own concocted view to Jesus and then read their own thoughts in the unreliable texts of their various versions of the Bibles, where even the unreliable texts of the Bibles clearly contradict the idea of divinity of Jesus/man becoming a man.

Job 25:4-6
Douay Rheims Bible
4 Can man be justified compared with God, or he that is born of a woman appear clean?

5 **Behold even the moon doth not shine, and the stars are not pure in his sight. **

6 *How much less man that is rottenness and the son of man who is a worm? **
[Douay-Rheims Bible, Job Chapter 25]](Douay-Rheims Bible, Job Chapter 25])

*****Note: In other versions of the Bible the word “maggot” is used instead of rottenness

And not to mention: nowhere in the NT, Jesus is reported to have said “I am God” or “Worship me”.

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[Justice2006]

LilyM:

Have you asked any Jews whether my line from Isaiah is correct or not? I suspect not. Have you asked them whether they believe God cannot or never would come to earth in human form?

Dear LilyM, please see my above post. I already replied your objection/question. If you still think what you say is what Jews believe then I dare you call Respected Maimonides an ignorant of his faith (Judaism).

In his commentary on the **Mishna ** (tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 10), Maimonides summerises 13 principles of Jewish faith:

The existence of God
God’s unity
God’s spirituality and incorporeality
God’s eternity
God alone should be the object of worship
Revelation through God’s prophets
The preeminence of Moses among the prophets
God’s law given on Mount Sinai
The immutability of the Torah as God’s Law
God’s foreknowledge of human actions
Reward of good and retribution of evil
The coming of the Jewish Messiah
The resurrection of the dead

Today, most of Orthodox Judaism holds these beliefs to be obligatory.

Ms LilyM, are you more knowledgeable about Judaism than Respected Maimonides who was one of the few medieval Jewish philosophers who also influenced the non-Jewish world? Even today, he is among the most respected of all Jewish philosophers.

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[LilyM]

Justice2006:

Ms LilyM,

nowhere in the NT, Jesus is reported to have said “I am God” or “Worship me”.

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Nice try again Justice2006 - you’re bringing out the big guns now, but still shooting blanks. Of course you must know by now that Jesus said ‘the Father and I are one’, therefore in advocating worship of the Father he was also advocating worship of himself. I’ll assume you’re just pulling my leg with that comment

On to Maimonides. I don’t pretend to know Judaism better than this great philosopher. Of course Maimonides WAS writing after the time of Jesus, which may have coloured his thinking a little. And of course an awful lot of Jews both during Jesus’ time and afterwards failed to identify Jesus with the prophesied Messiah. And of course, by definition, they did not and do not see Christianity as a legitimate development of Judaism. Naturally we Christians contend that they are misguided on both those points.

Here’s the kicker. These same Jews (including Maimonides) didn’t and don’t accept Mohammed either, as a prophet of the Jewish God, or Islam as a legitimate development of their religion. Equally naturally Islam contends that they are misguided on both those points. Neither do Christians recognise Mohammed as a prophet of our God the Father or Islam as a legitimate development either of Judaism or Christianity.

Does all this mutual non-recognition mean that none of the claims made by and about Jesus or Mohammed are true? Think long and hard about that before you answer. To my mind it’s a bit like Israel and Palestine both claiming particular bits of territory - in the end no-one can say ‘it’s objectively TRUE that Israel or Palestine should have this or that disputed bit of land’. Both peoples have claimed the land and lived on it at various points in history. Some people find Israel’s claim more credible and worthy of support, others agree with Palestine instead.

What I HAVE read in the Torah is that the ‘incorporate’ ‘eternal’ and ‘beyond space’ God of Maimonides DID assume a definite physical form from time to time when it was necessary - the Pillar of Fire and Pillar of Cloud, and the burning bush for Moses, to whom he also spoke ‘FACE TO FACE, as to a friend’ (maybe even in a human-like form?)’ (Exodus 33:11). And the Torah talks of man being made in God’s image (Genesis), which again gives some support for the idea of a physical form for God.

I’m getting more and more curious about that line from Isaiah, though. It sticks out like a sore thumb if Jews don’t believe in a God who can become man. I have to assume was indeed written by Isaiah and has been correctly translated. What DO Jews think it means if not that God would become incarnate?

Anyway, it’s good to think about these things. It’s extending my knowledge of my faith, not that I’m tempted to change it at all. One final question for you - if you believe Allah’s final and completed revelation was indeed to Mohammed, and that Islam is logical extension of Judaism, then what to make of the eagerly awaited Messiah? Is there going to be a new prophet, is Mohammed or one of the old prophets going to return or have you just ditched the concept of the Messiah altogether? At least we believe that Jesus was the fulfilment of that prophecy.

 

[Justice2006]

LilyM:

Nice try again Justice2006 - you’re bringing out the big guns now, but still shooting blanks. Of course you must know by now that Jesus said ‘the Father and I are one’, therefore in advocating worship of the Father he was also advocating worship of himself. I’ll assume you’re just pulling my leg with that comment

Well, I am afraid that if you read the whole context of "I and my Father are one" starting from verse 23 of John, you will see, Jesus is actually refuting what you are attributing to his personality.

It is so amazing that how you guys can believe in exactly 100% opposite to what Jesus is reported to have said/claim/preached in the Books of the New Testament written mostly by mysterious UNKNOWN authors.

Let me remind you what Geroge Bernard Shaw once said: "No man ever believes that the Bible means, what it says. He is always convinced that it says, what he means."

LilyM:

On to Maimonides. I don’t pretend to know Judaism better than this great philosopher. Of course Maimonides WAS writing after the time of Jesus, which may have coloured his thinking a little.

The question is not what else Respected Maimonides believes besides his Judaism’s view of God. The question was what is Jews’ view on God and the reason I presented Respected Maimonides’s view is to show you what most orthodox Jews believe because his views are accepted by most of them. And since you were asking/provoking me by saying:

LilyM:

Have you asked them [Jews] whether they believe God cannot or never would come to earth in human form?

And then you made a very big claim on all Jews’ behalf, as if you really know what all Jews believe, by saying:

So if we have both the Jews and the Christians understanding that God would come to earth in human form, then it really seems to be Islam which fails to understand the nature of our (allegedly) common God, no?.

What you say about Old Testament/Torah, is your view only and **not necessarily ** the view of all Jews.

You cannot assume something from your own and then attribute it to someone else. But this is what you most Christians have been doing with your Bibles and the personality of Jesus.

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[inJESUS]

is the Isaiah verse corrupt? no…nothing in the OT is corrupt just like the Dead Sea Scrolls proved…should we asked jews to explain the Bible? of course not, coz if they understood it, they would have understood that Jesus is the Messiah.

Justice, if the Bible is corrupt then your allah is a liar coz he said he will preserve it…whenever you adress this issue again i’ll ask you this same question until you understand what you are talking about.

 

[inJESUS]

John 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Show us the Father?

did any prophet claim such a sentence? Jesus is simply saying: why do you want to see the Father if you see me? can a mortal equal himself with God like Jesus did?

 

[inJESUS]

this thread is about the vague story of Jesus’ death in quran…if you have something to explain about the trick of the millenium, go ahead…if you don’t, post your questions elsewhere. thx.

 

[Justice2006]

LilyM:

Here’s the kicker. These same Jews (including Maimonides) didn’t and don’t accept Mohammed either, as a prophet of the Jewish God, or Islam as a legitimate development of their religion. Equally naturally Islam contends that they are misguided on both those points. Neither do Christians recognise Mohammed as a prophet of our God the Father or Islam as a legitimate development either of Judaism or Christianity.

You are using strawman logic. Rejecting some aspects does not mean that they are 100% wrong. Protestants diagree with your Papacy. Does this mean that Protestants are 100% faithless people?

Islam recognises Jews and Christians as People of the Book and if they truly have been following what their Prophets have taught in their time-period, prior to the advent of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) they will be saved as they too were Muslims (i.e.the ones who submit their will to the Will of God).

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[Justice2006]

LilyM:

What I HAVE read in the Torah is that the ‘incorporate’ ‘eternal’ and ‘beyond space’ God of Maimonides DID assume a definite physical form from time to time when it was necessary - the Pillar of Fire and Pillar of Cloud, and the burning bush for Moses, to whom he also spoke ‘FACE TO FACE, as to a friend’ (maybe even in a human-like form?)’ (Exodus 33:11). And the Torah talks of man being made in God’s image (Genesis), which again gives some support for the idea of a physical form for God.

Again, you are repeating samething over and over. The question was not what you assume about Judaism or what Jews supposed to believe. But the question was What Jews believe about the Nature of God from their perpective.

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[Justice2006]

LilyM:

I’m getting more and more curious about that line from Isaiah, though. It sticks out like a sore thumb if Jews don’t believe in a God who can become man. I have to assume was indeed written by Isaiah and has been correctly translated. What DO Jews think it means if not that God would become incarnate?

Their views are not just based on the Torah but also on other oral/written traditions just like how your Church teaches other stuff besides Bibles as you know your Catholic Bible of 72~74 Books does not contain all deposit of your Catholic faith.
So what the majority of orthodox Jews believe about the Nature of God is almost similar to what Islam/Koran says.

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[inJESUS]

Justice, if you know arabic, i will tell you who the people of the book are…Christians are NOT the people of the book neither Jesus had a gospel…do you know arabic?

 

[Justice2006]

LilyM:

Anyway, it’s good to think about these things. It’s extending my knowledge of my faith, not that I’m tempted to change it at all. One final question for you - if you believe Allah’s final and completed revelation was indeed to Mohammed, and that Islam is logical extension of Judaism, then what to make of the eagerly awaited Messiah? Is there going to be a new prophet, is Mohammed or one of the old prophets going to return or have you just ditched the concept of the Messiah altogether? At least we believe that Jesus was the fulfilment of that prophecy.

Very good question Ms LilyM.

Islam is not just logical extension of Religion preached by Prophet Moses (pbuh) but preached by all the Prophets of God (peace be upon them all).

There were no such relgions as Judiasm or Christianity preached by the Prophet Moses/Prophet Jesus (pbut). All Prophets of God followed only one religion and that was Islam (Islam means submission…submitting your will to the Will of God…meaning following the Laws and Commandments of God) and this was the main and sole purpose of the Prophethood of all the Prophets (pbut) of God Almighty.

As to Prophet Jesus (pbuh), it appears that he did not convey a great part of his mission, as some Jews of his time gave him very hard time and in the past these Jews used to kill their prophets though none of them ever claimed any divinity or kingship. So he is reported to have said:

7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment.
9 Of sin: because they believed not in me.
10 And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer. **
11 And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.
12 ** I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now./
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you.

So Prophet Jesus (pbuh) gave the glad tidings about the advent of a new Prophet (the Spirit of Truth). Because he was sent only to the Children of Israel.
But those who still did not believe his message nor the Last Prophet who was to come to preach ALL the truth, he will come back to complete his incomplete mission, but when he come back he will be following the religion of Islam (the same message, i.e. submission to Allah) . And those who fabricated new religons in the name of Christianity long after his ascension, they may come to him on his second coming, so:

22 ** Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?**
23 **And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. ** ----(Matthew 7:22-23)

Thus he will return to fix those Many of his so-called followers who in their minds think doing good works such as prophecying, *casting out devils * and *performing miracles * (tricks) but in fact all these Many are not following the true essence of Peophet Jesus message . They are followers of his staunch enemy, a self-appointed apostle Saint Saul. Because these people are actually lip servicing followers of Christ and follow not what actually Jesus preached:

8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.
9 And in vain do they worship me, teaching doctrines and commandments of men. —(Matthew 15:8-9)

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[inJESUS]

i asked a simple question a hundred times…do you know arabic Justice?

 

[inJESUS]

the spirit of truth thing has been badly refuted…the hopeless efforts to prove mohammad in quran were all refuted…but you find it under : false prophets…go read my thread of Moses vs mohammad to see that he opposed God almighty.

 

[inJESUS]

answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/muhammad.html#Part_3

a refutation…so save us this old trick pleaaaaase.

 

[inJESUS]

The Word of God
**
God forbids persons from remarrying their divorcees after having married someone else:**

“If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. **That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. ** Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.” Deuteronomy 24:1-4

“God says, ‘If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me,’ declares the LORD. Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see; Where have you not been violated? By the roads you have sat for them** Like an Arab in the desert**, And you have polluted a land With your harlotry and with your wickedness.” Jeremiah 3:1-2

Muhammad

Muhammad goes against Moses by allowing divorcees to remarry one another only after they have been married to someone else!

“A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. So do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (themselves as well as others). So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), he cannot, after that, re- marry her until after she has married another husband and he has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.” S. 2:229-230

Muhammad’s Allah calls permissible what Yahweh calls shameful and detestable!

read the thread to learn about polygamy as well…mohammad has nothing to do with God…he follow the god of this world…he calls good what God calls bad, to which Isaiah responds : WOE to you who see EVIL AS GOOD.

Now, do you or dont you know arabic?

 

[Justice2006]

inJESUS:

is the Isaiah verse corrupt? no…nothing in the OT is corrupt just like the Dead Sea Scrolls proved…should we asked jews to explain the Bible? of course not, coz if they understood it, they would have understood that Jesus is the Messiah.

Justice, if the Bible is corrupt then your allah is a liar coz he said he will preserve it…whenever you adress this issue again i’ll ask you this same question until you understand what you are talking about.

Mr. inJESUS,

I know you are keep talking about Dead Sea Scrolls (while ignoring Nag Hammadi ) but unfortunately they are not a proof of validity/genuineness of OT nor NT. Contents of Torah were already corrupted before the period of Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

If the Torah and other books of the Prophets were not corrupted then there was no need to appoint Prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Jeremias 8:8
How do you say: We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Indeed the lying pen of the scribes hath wrought falsehood.

Now as to what Dead Sea scrolls are, I will recommend you a book -DEAD SEA SCROLLS DECEPTION by *Michael Baigent * & Richard Leigh --but it is not available for free ONLINE, you must buy it and see the game played by those who concealed scrolls for decades:

Here is a brief editorial review on this book:

For the lay reader, this crystalline, well-documented work offers substantive evidence that for more than 40 years a small coterie of Catholic scholars established a stranglehold on access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in the Qumran caves east of Jerusalem in 1947.
Baigent and Leigh claim that the elite group had direct links to official Vatican propaganda offices, that at least two among them were outspoken anti-Semites, and that they suppressed material that connects early Christianity to the Qumran community as well as to the zealous defenders of the fortress of Masada. Drawing on the findings of independent Dead Sea Scrolls scholar Robert Eisenman of California State University, the authors advance startling theories that should change the way we view ancient Judaism and nascent Christianity. They argue that the Essenes, Zealots and Nazorenes or early Christians in first-century Palestine weren’t different Jewish sects but were, rather, various sobriquets for members of a broad messianic nationalistic movement dedicated to **upholding the Law of Moses ** and determined to violently overthrow the Roman occupiers.

The authors also amass evidence that the Habakkuk Commentary and other Dead Sea Scrolls refer to the same events as those recounted in Acts, in Josephus and in the works of early Christian historians; that Paul was sent forth by the hierarchy in Jerusalem for the express purpose of recruiting an army, and by preaching a new religion, he was depoliticizing and emasculating the militant movement; and that Paul might have been a Roman agent or informer.
Baigent and Leigh demonstrate the perfidies of clandestine, cliquish scholarship that isn’t accountable to the public and make urgent the forthwith publication and translation of all Scrolls material.

For details…read the book.
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