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katholikos12
Guest
I have heard either great things or things saying that they are theologically defunct?
Anyone have insight on this?
Or the CC’s stance?
Anyone have insight on this?
Or the CC’s stance?
- Status
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SteveVH
Guest
It looks like just one more group trying to sell a lot lf CD’s to me. They describe themselves as “A New Breed of Emerging Revivalists”. Sounds like the old advertising trick “New and Improved!” I’ll stick to the tried an true ancient Church of the Apostles.
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katholikos12
Guest
They are doing a lot of powerful things/healings/glory cloud and such. I have a soft spot for the evangelical community. They mean well and do well; they are just historically ignorant. I did come from them ya know (not Jesus culture – evangelicals)
Some hardline protestants beleive they are a theological cult – irony at its finest
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hongphan1996vn
Guest
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ChÃ*o các game th? thân m?n,
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katholikos12
Guest
huh?
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ltwin
Guest
I assume you are talking about the youth ministry of Bethel Church in Redding, California.
Bethel Church was an Assemblies of God church until 2006, when the congregation voted to cease its affiliation with the Assemblies of God. The Assemblies of God is a classical Pentecostal evangelical denomination, but Bethel Church had over the years moved more into the apostolic and prophetic movements, which does not really mesh well with classical Pentecostal models.
If you know anything about the New Apostolic Reformation, then you can kind of guess what they believe.
They are very charismatic and into signs and wonders and spiritual warfare and stuff like that. Some people probably might find them a little freaky. They have great music though.
The About Us page on the Jesus Culture website says:
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SteveVH
Guest
I have no doubt that they are probably very sincere folks who love Jesus. But its like “American Idol” out there sometimes. They just seem like the next in line. Next year it will be someone else. I love the permenance of the Catholic Church.They are doing a lot of powerful things/healings/glory cloud and such. I have a soft spot for the evangelical community. They mean well and do well; they are just historically ignorant. I did come from them ya know (not Jesus culture – evangelicals)
Some hardline protestants beleive they are a theological cult – irony at its finest
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
They are to be avoided. They’re into the “we’re speaking for God” crowd and (as said earlier in the thread) the “New Apostolic Reformation” shtick.
Some “light reading”:
apprising.org/2013/01/25/jesus-cultures-spiritual-mother-cindy-jacobs-admits-shes-a-false-prophet/
apprising.org/2013/01/04/friends-of-bethel-church-home-of-jesus-culture/
This is perhaps the most shocking one - the worship leader claims to have met both God the Father and God the Son (Joseph Smith, any one?):
apprising.org/2013/01/24/jesus-cultures-kim-walker-smiths-alleged-encounter-with-god-the-father-and-jesus-christ/
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cargills112
Guest
Thanks for sharing these links.
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may_they_be_one
Guest
Not sure that I’d give too much credibility to a website that says things like this apprising.org/2013/01/31/roman-catholic-and-protestant-churches-sign-agreement-recognizing-each-others-baptisms/, basing their system of church judgement on Galatians 1:6-9, slandering all believers who hold to the truth of Jesus under the banner of Catholicism.
In reference to Bethel, Jesus Culture, and all the others who contend for the Good News, let’s try to remember Jesus’ own words:
*“Do not stop him, for whoever is not against you is for you.” *(Lk 9:49-50), and
“I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (Jn 17:20-23)
Peace in Christ!
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
The links directly quote Bethel Church, Jesus Culture, and the like. If they have misquoted them, demonstrate it.
Are you saying that we should permit people who openly claim to have met God the Father and God the Son, and give personal revelation that supersedes the authority of scripture, and teach heretical doctrine? You quote Christ with sayings that could be generically used for any false teacher, but Christ likewise said:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" [Matthew 7:21-23]
The Hyper-Charismatic beliefs and extra-scriptural revelation of Bethel Church and Jesus Culture clearly contradict scripture, which warns us to avoid those “relying on their dreams” (Jude 1:8), and the prophet Jeremiah told us: “Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully,” comparing the two with straw and wheat (Jer 23:28).
Perhaps most of all, Bethel Church’s Cindy Jacobs has openly confessed (inadvertently) to being a false prophet, given that her prophecies which have not come to pass have shown them to be not coming from God:
“And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’—when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.” [Deu 18:21-22]
This alone should show that they are not speaking for God, but for themselves. Such people scripture warns us to avoid.
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ltwin
Guest
I haven’t read the sites you’ve linked to. And I haven’t heard the revelations that supposedly trump scripture. However, I personally see nothing unbiblical about seeing visions of the Father or the Son. Acts chapter 2 does say “In the last days . . . your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams” (paraphrase from memory).
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I would suggest reading the sites and the original sources they cite before shrugging it off.
As for Acts 2, that does not mean that people will see the literal God the Father and God the Son and receive personal revelation (as Joseph Smith did), let alone that anyone who comes along and says they saw the Father and Son actually have done so. In fact, a deeper study of Acts 2 reveals it as a precursor to the destruction of Jerusalem and the judgment upon the Jewish generation - everything discussed was fulfilled either in Acts or at the destruction of Jerusalem. I talk about this in detail on my blog.
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ltwin
Guest
Just because a person sees God the Father or God the Son does not mean they will initiate some new revelation. It might simply confirm already known scriptural truth or give edification to the believer.
Reading the transcript of Kim Walker’s vision, I don’t see God imparting to her any new revelation not found in God’s word already. She simply asks him 2 questions: “How much do You love me; and what were You thinking when You created me?”
I don’t see anything shocking about that. Do I know if she actually saw Jesus? I have no idea, but the content of her vision was nothing like Joseph Smith writing the Book of Mormon.
And full disclosure, I don’t agree with all the beliefs of Bill Johnson or the New Apostolic Reformation. However, I also don’t feel the need to make a mountain out of a mole hill. There is enough actual heresy out there to be concerned with than to have a fit over some innocent vision of Jesus Christ telling a woman that he loved her and she was not a mistake.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
If they have scripture, why do they need further revelation? In fact, nowhere in her entire sermon does she even quote or exegete scripture - everything is dependent upon her experience and what she has to say.
You should be very concerned on whether or not she actually saw Jesus. If she didn’t see Jesus, she’s either a liar or she saw something else. Especially when all those people listening to her are readily believing that she saw the real Jesus and God the Father. Her vision presents a visual description and identification of Jesus and God the Father that people will take to heart, on comparison with how he is described in scripture. She puts herself on part with Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, the apostle John and others who personally saw the glory of God. And again, she’s feeding this to her church. If she didn’t really meet and see God, and if she isn’t really speaking God’s word, then she’s feeding her flock spiritual deception. That’s something to be very concerned about, and why every time I hear someone say “I literally heard from God,” my first reaction is, “How do you know it was from God?”
Everything starts out small - even if we dare call this “small.” The people who were reviewing Joseph Smith’s strange beliefs when he was still a monotheist and before the LDS Church went the way of insanity would most likely have much to say to the idea of “not to worry”. Those who have interacted with Bethel Church in person and have encountered their strange beliefs and the actions of their members would say we have much to worry. Again, I encourage you study the links provided with a heart of discernment.
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ltwin
Guest
Well, I’ll tell you what. When I have a vision of Jesus Christ, I’ll be sure to ask him why he (the Lamb of God, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the Word that was with God at the foundation of the world) dared to personally visit Kim Walker to tell her that he loved her instead of just dropping a scripture verse into her head like all the smart, educated Christians think he should have done.
First, I’m not in spiritual authority over her, and I don’t know her to even begin to judge whether she saw a vision or not. That’s just plain beyond my knowledge to know and my resources to find out. Second, I don’t go to her church or sit under her ministry, but the vision I read did not raise any heresy flags for me. I don’t have any reason to suspect her of falsehood. So, if she said she saw Jesus, I can take her at her word, unless I have reason to doubt it or doubt the content of the vision. I don’t see anything suspect with the content of the vision, so I don’t see the problem.
“Everything starts out small.” Ok, I suppose the belief that the supernatural ended with the closing of the canon also started out small, eventually overtaking all of Western Christendom until we have this weak, powerless gospel that is preached from most pulpits today, but that would just be my opinion.
Like I said, I don’t agree with everything that Bethel stands for. However, I also don’t agree that just because there are problematical issues with the doctrine of a church that that gives heresy hunters license to dramatize and denounce the most innocent of personal experiences.
Walker, by her own testimony, had some sort of encounter with God, which she offered for the edification of those listening. Suddenly, that puts her on the level with Joseph Smith who claimed to have visions of the Godhead in which they commissioned him to restore the “true church” of Christ and propagate a false testament of scripture.
Sorry, but I’m not buying what you’re selling. Too often, such criticisms come from people who aren’t willing to accept any sort of supernatural dimension to Christianity. They can believe that Christ rose from the dead, but now they think that God operates according to Scottish Common Sense Philosophy. I reject such enlightenment, Western rationalist reductionism.
I’m not willing to criticize Kim Walker because she claimed to see Christ. When I criticize her, it will be because she has said something that is false and contrary to the word of God. The vision that is being cited as so bad and unacceptable is just not problematic from a doctrinal stand point. That’s not to say that Kim Walker is perfect or that there isn’t things wrong with her theology, I don’t know enough about her to know. I’m only saying that there is nothing intrinsically wrong or unscriptural for someone to have actually seen a vision of God and to tell that to others for the purpose of edifying the body of Christ.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Sarcasm is the greatest betrayal of lack of argumentation, and your lack of discernment and saying that western Christendom has been overtaken by a weak gospel shows me that our conversation is not worth continuing. There is no such thing as a “weak gospel,” sir - there is only the gospel, which is the power of God for salvation (Rom 1:16). Everything else is simply a false gospel (Gal 1:8-9).
And so, good day, sir.
And so, good day, sir.
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ltwin
Guest
I told you what I thought, and I addressed your rather arrogant attitude when it came to personal experience (“If they have scripture, why do they need further revelation?”) with humor because that would be better than acting in an equally arrogant and high handed manner in shooting such presumption down. If Jesus wants to appear to someone in a personal way, why would the existence of scripture eliminate that as an option? God will not contradict what he has revealed to us in his word, but neither is he prevented from speaking to us today. Scripture is what we measure such words by. It is our guide, but it has not replaced the present word of God for us. God is still speaking, and if we listen, we might just hear him telling us something important.
In Kim Walker’s case, he told her that he loved her and that she was not a mistake. Now you can compare that to Joseph Smith all you want, but it wont change the fact that that is exactly the message that I would expect Jesus to give anyone of us. How do I know? Because I’ve read the Holy Bible, and that is what I measure such things by. God loves us, and not only can we read those words on a page but we can also hear God tell us that he loves us in amazing ways. Visions are just one.
If you don’t want to talk anymore, that’s fine. I’ve said what I wanted to say. No hard feelings, and if you thought my sarcasm was harsh or inappropriate, then I apologize. It seemed an appropriate response given what you said.
It’s all good. I still consider you a brother in Christ, even if we disagree on Kim Walker’s vision and you think I lack discernment.
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katholikos12
Guest
Guess who is never bringing up a form of Protestantism up in this forum ever again?
This guy.
This guy.
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ltwin
Guest
You never know what can of worms you’ll open.- Status