Jesus' Death and Resurection

[Reuben_J]

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament whatsoever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage which also contains an explanation for the verses in Psalm 22.

I think we welcome your opinion as an alternative possibility to the interpretation of the prophecies and Biblical verses. Nevertheless the death of Jesus is a historical fact. The Quran says he did not die but the Bible and some independent historians corroborated the crucifixion. You will learn much here in this forum about this one reality. Slowly you will be led to the root of it all; why the Messiah must die at the hands of men. You would be at awe then at the infinite love of God.

Islam understanding of God is insufficent and there is much to know about God and what He actually is. Just to say that God is merciful does not mean anything because you do not know how this mercifulness come about. I think Islam is afraid to confront the deeper nature of God because then it will come face to face with the fact of Jesus death and ressurection. I don’t know what holds it back, but definitely it is not from God Himself beacuse God wants us to know that we can be made right with Him and that he saves us. Yes, us. And that means you and I. And again, it is not something that happen just because we say God is merciful. But more importantly as to why He is merciful and what He does about it.

I am puzzled though that with very much less you are prepared to assert that Mohammad was prophecied in the Bible.

God bless.

 

[paarsurrey]

“Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.”
– Jesus (pbuh) from the Quran, chapter 19

Hi

As I understand from the above verse of Quran it is that there is/was nothing extraordinary with JesusYeshuaIssa as far as his birth or his natural death or his raising from the dead in hereafter is concerned, it was as usual with all other all pious persons in the world. Nothing to make him a deity.

Others could differ with me, no compulsion, that is their right.

Thanks

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Hi

As I understand from the above verse of Quran it is that there is/was nothing extraordinary with JesusYeshuaIssa as far as his birth or his natural death or his raising from the dead in hereafter is concerned, it was as usual with all other all pious persons in the world. Nothing to make him a deity.

Others could differ with me, no compulsion, that is their right.

Thanks

Paar:

Is there any other prophet in the Quran and other revered Muslim texts who did the miracles Jesus (pbuh) did? If not, then why do you say there is nothing extraordinary about him?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was raised up alive some 2,000 years ago and at some point in time in the not-too-distant(?) future, he will descend to the world…

He will live for 40 years, marry and have children and then he will die and on the Day of Resurrection, he will be raised to life just like every human being who has ever lived and died throughout human history.

2Han:

I understand Muslims to believe the Quran to be, word-for-word, the words Allah himself gave to Muhammad (pbuh). It has been some time since i read the Quran, even though i have my English translation here with me.

Is there any place in the Quran where Allah specifically says Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified?

 

[Chesster]

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament whatsoever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage which also contains an explanation for the verses in Psalm 22.

This contradicts what Jesus Himself explicitly states in Luke 24.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This contradicts what Jesus Himself explicitly states in Luke 24.

The question before you and i Chesster (and before anyone else here who cares to sincerely consider it) is whether the Quran or the Bible is closest to the truth.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

To clarify the correct concept of Islam/Quran/Muhammad about the issue, I would like to quote relevant verses from Quran:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’
[4:156] So, for their (Jews) breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4:160] And there is none among the People of the Book but will continue to believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them.
Unquote

As you would please observe there is no mention of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead in Quran/Islam; as do our Catholic and Non-Catholic Christians friends believe of Jesus getting resurrected after dying a cursed death on Cross. Quran/Islam/Muhammad deny that unequivocally.

The only resurrection of JesusYeshuaIssa would be on the Day of Judgment alongwith every human being. This is very clear in these verses as also in many a verse in other places in Quran.

This must be understood, please.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

How do you know that this is true? :juggle: :whacky:

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… 4:158. And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4:160] And there is none among the People of the Book but will continue to believe in it before his death; and on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them. …

Thank you, Paar. I think then you might then appreciate the dilemma in which i find myself, for the followers of Jesus tell me:

There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. When they [the Roman soldiers] had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. And sitting down, they kept watch over him there.– Matthew (pbuh), from the 27th chapter of his gospelAt the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they [the followers of Jesus] laid Jesus there.– John (pbuh), from the 19th chapter of his gospel"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."–Peter (pbuh), from the the book of the Acts of the ApostlesSo i ask myself, and you Paar, in whom shall i trust, Muhammad (pbuh) or the followers of Jesus (pbuh)? Who is telling me the truth and how can i be sure?

 

[hamba2han]

… in whom shall i trust, Muhammad (pbuh) or the followers of Jesus (pbuh)?

For Muslims, the answer to this question is just so incredibly easy i.e. trust BOTH Muhammad (pbuh) especially **AND ** also followers of Jesus (pbuh)true.

Who is telling me the truth and how can I be sure?

The answer to this question is also not difficult.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

For Muslims, the answer is just so incredibly easy i.e. trust BOTH Muhammad (pbuh) especially **AND **also the true followers of Jesus (pbuh).

You must try to understand that i myself am a believer that there is only one true God, yet i am also philosopher (or lover of wisdom and truth). Your confidence in the truth of what you believe and the falsity of what Christianity teaches is admirable, but not sufficient to change my mind. I must believe only what the evidence demonstrates is the truth. Where that evidence leads me, i will follow.,

If you have evidence to present that the Biblical authors, such as Peter (pbuh), are not trustworthy eyewitnesses of Jesus (pbuh) please share this with me. After all, Peter (pbuh), Matthew (pbuh) and the other Biblical writers were either telling the truth or they were liars, or lunatics, or (worse yet) in league with Lucifer.

Please tell me, for my own sake, why i should not trust what they wrote.

 

[hamba2han]

If you have evidence to present that the Biblical authors, such as Peter (pbuh), are not trustworthy eyewitnesses of Jesus (pbuh) please share this with me. After all, Peter (pbuh), Matthew (pbuh) and the other Biblical writers were either telling the truth or they were liars, or lunatics, or (worse yet) in league with Lucifer.

Please tell me, for my own sake, why i should not trust what they wrote.

I suggest that you do an assignment in order to satisfy yourself.

First, you need to watch this video in it’s entirety.

Second, you need to answer the following question:

Suppose you found a memo lying on the floor at your workplace, purportedly from your boss but carrying instructions which seem to be at variance with past company procedure and in addition, it is written in handwriting which looks different from that of your boss… would you then carry out the instructions on it without first checking whether or not it did come from your boss and whether the memo was meant for you?
If your answer is ‘NO’, then why is it that Christians are following the teachings of Paul?

If your answer is ‘YES’, then does this not mean that Christians can kiss goodbye their “end-of-year Christmas bonus” and also any hopes for “promotion” to a higher position that they might harbour, if it turns out that the “memo” in question was not really from their “Boss”?

 

[George_Waters]

Second, you need to answer the following question:

Suppose you found a memo lying on the floor at your workplace, purportedly from your boss but carrying instructions which seem to be at variance with past company procedure and in addition, it is written in handwriting which looks different from that of your boss… would you then carry out the instructions on it without first checking whether or not it did come from your boss and whether the memo was meant for you?

And what if you do check with your boss and he explains that the memo is legitimate, that some company policies have been misinterpreted and that there is a change in procedure? Furthermore, while he did not write the memo himself he did dictate it to his secretary and everything is on the up and up. What would you do then? Hamba, please! You have used this “argument” before and it is just as silly now as it is then. You think Paul changed things, but have no evidence to support this claim aside from the Quran, which is so full of cut-and-paste Gnostic beliefs and errors it is not even funny. You remind me of fundamental Christians I have encountered, “The Bible sez it, I believe it, that settles it!” It is good you have faith. It is too bad your faith is not based on truth and fact.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Second, you need to answer the following question:

Suppose you found a memo lying on the floor at your workplace, purportedly from your boss but carrying instructions which seem to be at variance with past company procedure and in addition, it is written in handwriting which looks different from that of your boss… would you then carry out the instructions on it without first checking whether or not it did come from your boss and whether the memo was meant for you?
If your answer is ‘NO’, then why is it that Christians are following the teachings of Paul?

If your answer is ‘YES’, then does this not mean that Christians can kiss goodbye their “end-of-year Christmas bonus” and also any hopes for “promotion” to a higher position that they might harbour, if it turns out that the “memo” in question was not really from their “Boss”?

Do you think it is unreasonable of me to ask? Is the question rude and offensive? Is it a sin to ask you why you believe what you do and why i should believe as you do?

 

[Salamander]

Let me make a stab at the answer.

Now, that’s an interesting statement considering how we infidels should die if we do not conform.

But, I digress, hamba2han, where is Muhammed buried?

 

[hamba2han]

Do you think it is unreasonable of me to ask? Is the question rude and offensive? Is it a sin to ask you why you believe what you do and why i should believe as you do?

Al-Qur’an, Chapter 2, Verse 256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

From the above, we can see that it would be sinful for Muslims to force anyone to believe in Islam.

I am not quite sure what is the proof of Islam that you are looking for.

Like I have often mentioned, the Qur’an is indeed the timeless miracle which is the ultimate and irrefutable proof of the Truth of Islam.

If after examining the Qur’an, they are still not convinced, then I’m afraid there is not much point for Muslims to provide other proofs to try and convince people who choose not to believe.

 

[hamba2han]

Now, that’s an interesting statement considering how we infidels should die if we do not conform.

But, I digress, hamba2han, where is Muhammed buried?

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is buried in Madinah and more specifically the Prophet’s Mosque, which over the years has greatly expanded and now encompasses the Prophet’s tomb within it.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Al-Qur’an, Chapter 2, Verse 256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

From the above, we can see that it would be sinful for Muslims to force anyone to believe in Islam.

I am not quite sure what is the proof of Islam that you are looking for.

Like I have often mentioned, the Qur’an is indeed the timeless miracle which is the ultimate and irrefutable proof of the Truth of Islam.

If after examining the Qur’an, they are still not convinced, then I’m afraid there is not much point for Muslims to provide other proofs to try and convince people who choose not to believe.

Yes, i agree, if you were able to argue me into Islam someone else might just as easily argue me out of it. I’m not asking you to do anything like that. I’m not asking you to put a sword to my throat and tell me to repent or die. I’m simply asking you to answer my questions.

Is it a sin for a Muslim to answer the sincere questions of an unbeliever seeking to determine whether Islam is the true way? Is it morally wrong for an non-Muslim to ask you to explain not just what you believe but also why you believe?

 

[George_Waters]

If after examining the Qur’an, they are still not convinced, then I’m afraid there is not much point for Muslims to provide other proofs to try and convince people who choose not to believe.

Hamba, unless you can read a man’s mind and heart how can you tell that he chooses not to believe? Is it simply the fact that since he believes differently from you it must be his lack? I could just as easily say with equal conviction that due to your choice you are hell bound, but it could also be a) you have not been provided with sufficient and creditable evidence and/or b) God has not called you to Him yet. Islam has failed to prove its “irrefutable truth” to anyone on this forum. Is that our choice or your failure? Perhaps it is simply the will of Allah that we reject him, being created simply to suffer and die.

I admire you faith, conviction and perseverance hamba, I really do, but your reliance on certain illogical statements has done nothing for your cause, in fact quite the opposite.

 

[George_Waters]

Yes, i agree, if you were able to argue me into Islam someone else might just as easily argue me out of it. I’m not asking you to do anything like that. I’m not asking you to put a sword to my throat and tell me to repent or die. I’m simply asking you to answer my questions.

Is it a sin for a Muslim to answer the sincere questions of an unbeliever seeking to determine whether Islam is the true way? Is it morally wrong for an non-Muslim to ask you to explain not just what you believe but also why you believe?

I hope you do not ignore these honest questions hamba. Take some time and pray about them, ask Allah then simply answer the questions. You will find you will get much better results than cut-and-paste or attempts to change the subject.

Good questions Socrates4Jesus!