Jesus denied transubstantiation

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Little Mary,

By the Spirit of God which teaches His children all things… comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

John
www.gideonsword.net
But I am a child of God and the Spirit teaches me as well, but I disagree with your interpretation. And I know non-denominational Christians who claim to be led by the Spirit who probably interpret scripture yet another way. So how do we know who is right? How can we all receive different teachings from the same Spirit?

BTW, I am curious to know if you still think Ignatius’s writings are bunk seeing that he was taught by John. I would think that if you think John did not properly instruct Ignatius, that would put the whole validity of John’s Gospel and writings in jeopardy.
 
But I am a child of God and the Spirit teaches me as well, but I disagree with your interpretation. And I know non-denominational Christians who claim to be led by the Spirit who probably interpret scripture yet another way. So how do we know who is right?
Ooh, ooh, I know this one!!! It’s the Church that has been guided by the Holy Spirit in Truth and has taught the same thing for ALMOST 2000 YEARS!!!
 
I wonder if the story about the two disciples Lk:24:13-35 could be applied to this thread. We see the The Word interpeting The Word so we know for a fact that this was a bible study par excellence. …
Absolutely! These verses in particular “When he was at the table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him…” Luke 24:30-31

While Jesus opened the scriptures for them, their hearts burned (verse 32), but they didn’t recognize Him as He explained scriptures alone; they recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread. That Bible passage makes the point that disciples can walk with Jesus discussing scriptures, but He might lead them to a place where they can recognize Him in the breaking of the bread. I pray Jesus walks with John the bibleapologist down that road.
 
Magic Silence,
Then how do you feel about the quotes we have posted from the Early Church Fathers which say the opposite?
Do you, in fact, have a quote from the ECF’s supporting your position?
The quotes I have used are from Church fathers that are earlier than yours, I think that makes my quotes more credible. Here is the Apostle Paul…
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
John
www.gideonsword.net
 
bibleapologist: "And what about the blood, the same thing, how could Jesus, being 100% man and 100% God sitting with them at the table miraculously put His blood into those 13 cups (which is alot of blood). Or how can it be that blood so highly esteemed by God return to earth every time the Catholic Church has mass. "

Well, it’d be 1 cup as he would have passed it around “Take this…”

Also, as this has gone into a rather extensive exegesis of these passages I can only add simply that there is a break at John 6 59 and John 6 60. The conversation changes and it appears it was later on. If it were to flow it wouldn’t have said “Jesus taught this in the synagogue.” So I disagree with you that one can take what Jesus said in 43-59 in conjunction with 60 - 71.

Also, Jesus talks about the Manna and Moses’ time in order to bring continuity between those scripture’s meanings and what he was saying to the Jews. If he was doing that and He said “eat my flesh and drink my blood” figurativly, then he would have been using it in the same way as God did in Micah 3:3 (and other O.T. Verses) and it is interpreted in those passages as God is referencing an understanding that eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood is a sort of assault or persecution. Why would Jesus be using these terms metaphorically if they would have contained such a message (remember everything which was refered to in such a way carried with it a very direct and well known meaning).

if you reread John 6 with this understanding, that if Jesus meant this all metaphorically the Jews would have seen this as a reference to how eating of flesh and drinking of blood had been used in the O.T., the John passage would read like this “He who ridicules the Son of Man has eternal life.” That is how the Jews would have understood it…

And finally, why would the Jews have left Jesus in disgust if he softened his teaching for them in John 6:60?
 
Magic Silence,

The quotes I have used are from Church fathers that are earlier than yours, I think that makes my quotes more credible. Here is the Apostle Paul…

John
www.gideonsword.net
Well, the real presence is widly accepted… Martin Luther accepted it as well as spoke about all the Early Church Fathers accepting it. Check it out “Luther’s Works”
 
Truthstalker,
I’m wondering: if you don’t believe the ECF, because you only believe Scripture, then why should we, taking your example, listen to anything you have to say, because what you say is not Scripture? Are you a better authority for the Bible than the ECF are?
As I said in the previous post, the ECF I am quoting are more credible than yours. A contradictory statement by a subsequent “church father” doesn’t correct truth does it?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
The quotes I have used are from Church fathers that are earlier than yours, I think that makes my quotes more credible. Here is the Apostle Paul…
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
OK, I give… How does this dis-prove Transsubstantiation?
 
Truthstalker,

As I said in the previous post, the ECF I am quoting are more credible than yours. A contradictory statement by a subsequent “church father” doesn’t correct truth does it?

John
www.gideonsword.net
One thing I just thought about: Your initial premise is that Jesus denied transubstantiation. This would require a quote from the bible where Jesus said “This is not my body/blood”.

I think you started on tenuous grounds sir. :o
 
Oh and many may disagree with me on this one, but I feel this argument is as irrellevent as arguing if a dog will go to heaven or not. Does Christ ever say “If you do not believe that this is my body and blood you will not go to heaven”? No, he says that we must believe he was the son of God and that we must have faith that he died for our sins, and by that death he gave us the ability to go to live forever.
 
Odell,
Amen. never said he did. We meet Him and are called up in spirit!
MASS IS HEAVEN ON EARTH! notice John didnt say Jesus came down but that he was called up on the Lords day.
and what did John sees in heaven the same things we see at the mass!
an alter(Rev 8:3)
candles(1:2)
incense (5:8)
priests dressed in robes (4:4)
bread of manna (2:17)
bowls and chalices of BLOOD (ch16)
And a wedding feast of the Lamb (19:9) it is amazing to take part of the same feast that is taking place in heaven!
You do realize that all of those things are Old Testament items, that were “shadows of things to come” (Col. 2:17). By imitating the truths these things once symbolized (shadowed), the Catholic Church has diverted men’s belief from the those truths and caused them to trust an imitation.

The altar symbolized the truth of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.
The candles symbolized the Holy Spirit’s presence.
The incense symbolized the prayers of God’s people.
Priests in robes symbolized the High Priest Jesus Christ who ever lives to make intercession for us.
The bread of manna symbolized the Word of God (made flesh John 1:14)
Bowls and chalices of Rev. 16 represent judgment on the earth (I don’t get your comparison there)
And the wedding feast is something that is “going” to take place when we who are saved are taken from this earth and are united with our “husbandman” (Christ). (Matt. 25:1-13; Matt. 22:2-14)

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
The Catholic,
I will never, and can never believe that if one doesn’t know the fullness of Truth then he is dammed. That is EVIL and UNGODLY. A statment only a fanatic would make. The same ones who would burn you at the stake for not believing what you say. And this is why religon causes so much death, war and destruction. Because of fanatics.
Jesus was considered a fanatic… So was Peter… and John… and the Apostle Paul.

They were thrown into prison, beaten, scorned, and eventually killed because they refused to stop proclaiming the name of Jesus. And Jesus refused to retract His statements about Himself… King of the Jews.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Magic Silence,

The quotes I have used are from Church fathers that are earlier than yours, I think that makes my quotes more credible. Here is the Apostle Paul…

John
www.gideonsword.net
This sounds very third-grade… I’d like to start seeing some quotes from ECF’s. Tomorrow I am going to try to look up exactly where Martin Luther talked about all the ECF’s not denying transubstantiation.
 
Pax,
The final iteration is found in verse 64 which says, " ‘But there are some of you that do not believe.’ For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe." They had walked with him and believed in him and his miracles until he told them that he would give them his flesh to eat and blood to drink. This is what they refused to believe.
Of course they refused to believe that, but that was Jesus’ point… to bring those Jews to point that they couldn’t stay on the fence where He was concerned. Jesus claimed that He was spiritual food and drink (He is the word of God John 1:1), those Jews couldn’t accept that… they wanted a miracle… Jesus position was, He was the Miracle they were waiting for.

Since the Jews couldn’t accept that… Jesus showed them that the only other option rather than accepting that He was spiritual sustenance was to believe that his flesh was good to eat.

Jesus in no way meant He wanted them to eat his flesh, He only wanted to show them that their position was irrational.

Anyone on this thread who has studied apologetics understands how “irrational logic” works.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
visavismeyou,
This sounds very third-grade… I’d like to start seeing some quotes from ECF’s. Tomorrow I am going to try to look up exactly where Martin Luther talked about all the ECF’s not denying transubstantiation.
What is childish about it. Why is it you don’t regard the Apostles as ECF, but you highly regard those who you say were taught by the Apostles.

Rather than quoting the ECF, let’s go back to the original source… that’s my point. It seems to me an argument based on the word from the original source would be the most credible argument one could make…

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Maryalene,
BTW, I am curious to know if you still think Ignatius’s writings are bunk seeing that he was taught by John. I would think that if you think John did not properly instruct Ignatius, that would put the whole validity of John’s Gospel and writings in jeopardy.
Are you saying that if a person is properly trained they cannot possibly go into apostacy?

Are you prepared to say that the Catholic Church succeeded in properly training Luther?

I don’t think so. So why should we trust the ECF’s as infallible or (nearly infallible), and not completely trust the original source of this teaching, if it is possible that these men could apostasize?

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
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