Jesus denied transubstantiation

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Church Militant,
I have to assert here that I think we disagree because, although you consider your theology on this issue to be strictly Bible based, that I believe that you actually base it upon what you have been taught that these passages mean. (Hey…I could well be wrong, and I realize that you do your own homework.) I just think that it reflects a denominational coloring instead of a straight up acceptance of what the passages in question say.
I see the same thing from my perspective. When I received Christ 17yrs. ago I went to many different Churches and couldn’t find a Church that was preaching and teaching the truth. After the JW’s, Non Denom., Catholic, and others in between I ended up in the Church I am in… not because of what I had been taught, but what I had been reading from the Bible. From that experience the only conclusion I can come to is that others believe what they believe because that is what they have been taught from others.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Pax,
We know that they believed in Jesus because in John 6:14-15 it says, “When the people saw the sign which he had done, they said, “This is indeed the prophet who is to come into the world!” Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.” The people believed in him.
Can you tell me then why Jesus said this…
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
And why did the Jews say this?..
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
I believe you are the one who is way off target…

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
alexaustralia,

Congratulations on finishing your quest for the end of the thread!
  1. Although you claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit you would not declare your interpretation infallible. As such you admit the possibility of error and consequently admit you have no authority to bind my conscience to your beliefs. So if I disagree…how can you state that it is I who is in error when you cannot proclaim with certainty that your own beliefs are correct?
  1. The testimony of the Holy Spirit heard for 1,500 years through the voices/writtings of fellow Christians contradict your own testimony. However you declare their testimony incorrect even though you cannot state with full conviction (as you are not infallible) that your interpretation is correct.
I don’t know about you John, but I would start questioning things when in order to uphold my beliefs I need to disregard every one else’s…even the disciples of the apostles!..to do so is to declare that for 1500 years the Holy Spirit was inactive in God’s Church.
To prove the authenticity of my interpretation of the text in question, I can only ask those who question me to review the text, and humbly consider it… as I have done. Prayerfully consider my argument, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in the truth without leaning on presuppositions you may have based on someone else’s teaching; ie. ECF’s.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
visavismeyou,
leaves no room to practice as Christ instructed us to practice. DianJo never said that we are saved because we go to the mass, rather, we are informed at the mass as to how to be saved and we give thanks to Jesus for doing the act which are able to believe in which allows us to be saved, all at the mass. (sorry that last sentance would not come out of me any simpler)
What you just described is exactly the symbolism in the ordinance that Jesus commanded us to practice…“do this in remembrance of Me”. I have never doubted that a person who is in a church service who sees the “Lord’s supper” being observed could evaluate the situation, see the symbolism, and believe and be saved.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
Church Militant,

. From that experience the only conclusion I can come to is that others believe what they believe because that is what they have been taught from others.

John
www.gideonsword.net
I went through a similar scenario and came to similar conclusions. But remember John, not everyone fits in that catigory… I rarely listen to anyone!! 😃

But one must allow for the room that one can be wrong, as I have done with this thread. Initially I started reading your article as if maybe I could be wrong and that Christ meant body/blood only in a spiritual way, yet, I have only reaffirmed that whatever we are eating and drinking, it is more than just bread and wine. Christ said that it is his body and blood at the outset of the tradition of the Euchrist and I say we trust him 🙂
 
adrift,

If I were going on a long trip, and in an effort to console her… I gave my wife a single rose, and said “This is my love for you, when you look at it, remember me”. Would that actually make that single rose my love? Of course not, but it would “symbolize” my love for her…

John
www.gideonsword.net
Love is an intangible concept. It is a feeling. You cannot show me love at all and the only way to demonstrate it is through symbolism. On the other hand, body is concrete. You can see it, feel it and touch it. When Jesus said this is my body, it was a plain statement of fact and it contradicts your assertion that he denied transubstantiation. You have yet to provide a direct statement from Jesus supporting your view one that is not just your interpretation.
 
Way back in the beginning of this thread, John claimed that transubstantiation was invented by the Catholic Church in 1215. Here is my question: If that is true, why do the Eastern Orthodox Christians believe in the real presence as well, since they predate 1215? What about Coptic Christians?
This is interesting, because it was only through studying Eastern Orthodoxy that I was finally able to see how untenable the Protestant position on various issues (like the Real Presence) was. The Catholics and Orthodox had some struggles fairly early on, particularly in regard to the Pope’s role and such, but the Real Presence was held by them both. It wasn’t just some later Catholic addition.

My initial objection to the Real Presence wasn’t based on an interpretation of Scripture, but was based more on an intellectual rebellion against the idea. It just seemed so ludicrous. However, when I determined that the overwhelming Christian belief from the earliest days was opposed to my understanding of the Doctrine, I had to admit I was wrong.

I remember a book by Tim LaHaye, in which he mentioned how a friend of his had asked for his help in interpreting prophecy, as his friend wanted to incorporate it into a book. Tim LaHaye encouraged the man to look into it on his own, saying (and I paraphrase, not having the original text in front of me), “Interpreting prophecy is easy.” The problem is, of course, that Dr. LaHaye’s “easy” interpretations of prophecy often go against that held by nearly all Christians until very recently.

Many people pick up a Bible and, whether they are interpreting end-times prophecy or the words of Christ, they come up with an apparently obvious interpretation. It seems so obvious to them, that they automatically assume that those who disagree are either deliberately rejecting the truth or are simply not Christians at all.

However, different interpetations do occur, over just about every passage of Scripture, it seems. How, then, is one supposed to know whose interpretation is more correct? One could pray, yes, and we certainly should all do so. However, even then, people still disagree. I’ve talked with Mormon missionaries whose sincerity was quite apparent, and their interpretations were vastly different than mine. I am certain they prayed for guidance.

So, how does one reconcile different interpretations? In the case of an historical account, I believe that an earlier interpretation is more likely to be true than a later one, unless it could be proven that the later interpreter had access to more information than his predecessors. For example, if a man writes an autobiography, some parts of which are difficult to understand, who is more qualified to interpret it, someone who lived many hundreds of years later, or the man’s own family and friends? If the man’s son clarified an event from the autobiography, I would tend to trust that interpretation more than that of someone who just picked up the autobiography and started studying it.

To bring it back to the present topic, the John 6 discourse is a bit difficult to understand, and I think even Catholics must admit this. As this passage is confusing, I think it would be quite arrogant for anyone to suggest his or her personal interpretation is obviously correct. If one starts insisting on the rightness of his or her interpretation, to the point of questioning others’ Christian faith, I think some serious self-examination needs to occur.

I believe, then, that what we really ought to do is humbly admit that we, two thousand years removed from the writing of the passage, are perhaps not the best qualified to correctly interpret it. Those who knew the writers, however, are far more qualified, and when there is a consensus among them, how can we, apart from scaling the heights of arrogance, say that they were wrong and we are right?

For me, this settles the matter. The interpretation of Scripture held by the Early Church, passed down through the ages for fifteen hundred years, is that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. For me to trust the interpretation of anyone in the 1500’s to the 2000’s who thinks his or her new interpretation is more correct would be folly.

God bless!

I am now a veteran of two RCIA classes!
 
visavismeyou,
I went through a similar scenario and came to similar conclusions. But remember John, not everyone fits in that catigory… I rarely listen to anyone!!
I respect your conclusions, I would never ask that anyone concede to an argument of mine if my argument contradicted their convictions.

I can only try to convince you by reasoning with you through the scriptures.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
The lambic pen,
I believe, then, that what we really ought to do is humbly admit that we, two thousand years removed from the writing of the passage, are perhaps not the best qualified to correctly interpret it. Those who knew the writers, however, are far more qualified, and when there is a consensus among them, how can we, apart from scaling the heights of arrogance, say that they were wrong and we are right?
As I said before, I appreciate that stance. But one must also consider the fact that those same people you call qualified are not infallible, and could very well have misinterpreted the Apostle’s teaching. Just like the Jews did in John 6… and they were being taught by Jesus Himself.

Think about this… Enoch, the bible says walked with God, insomuch that he was taken up to be with God… I recently taught a lesson where I proved that while Enoch was alive, so was Adam. Remember Adam was the one who actually walked and talked with God in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day. It is plausible, even probable that Enoch learned from Adam the desire to be close to God and walk with Him. Enoch probably spent many days talking to grandpa Adam about what it was like to spend time with the Most High God.

This would seem to prove your point. But, an earlier witness to the earliest of all mankind who “knew” God personally… was Cain, who by his own pride thought his sacrifice should be accepted by God. Cain was way off in his theology, which in no way was contingent on his closeness to the source, but was a result of his own philosophy.

Cain’s philosophy was a product of his own decision.

Likewise Lamech… the father of Noah was obviously further from the truth than his son although he was closer to the source.
Gen 4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
Gen 4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
To be closer to the source does not automatically mean “believing” like the source. Even the early theologians after the Apostles had the free will to chose a heretical position on any subject.

John
www.gideonsword.net
 
I see the same thing from my perspective. When I received Christ 17yrs. ago I went to many different Churches and couldn’t find a Church that was preaching and teaching the truth. After the JW’s, Non Denom., Catholic, and others in between I ended up in the Church I am in… not because of what I had been taught, but what I had been reading from the Bible.
The way you said this is very telling by itself, and it actually confirms what many people have pointed out earlier.

You claim that as you were going around searching for a church, your goal was to find one that was “preaching and teaching the truth”. In other words, you already had a pre-conceived idea of what the “truth” was in your head BEFORE setting foot in any one of these churches. Until you found one that agreed with the scriptural interpretations that you had already made up your mind on, you simply dismissed them as “false”. It is the same thing you have been doing here so far.

If this debate has been fruitless up until now, it is only because you haven’t been open-minded enough to see that from an outside perspective all your arguments beg the question… Believe it or not, many other people read the very same Bible that you do, claim to have “guidance from the Holy Spirit” in proclaiming it, and yet they came to different conclusions than you. The only objective difference is “they said so” vs. “you said so”.

Also, please stop using the terms “scripture” and “my interpretation” interchangably. Thanks. 👍
 
Church Militant,

I see the same thing from my perspective. When I received Christ 17yrs. ago I went to many different Churches and couldn’t find a Church that was preaching and teaching the truth. After the JW’s, Non Denom., Catholic, and others in between I ended up in the Church I am in… not because of what I had been taught, but what I had been reading from the Bible. From that experience the only conclusion I can come to is that others believe what they believe because that is what they have been taught from others.

John
Weird ain’t it? 🙂
 
ssejllenrad,

What would you suggest I do, maybe fax you a letter from God proving that I am His child? Maybe I should ask the Holy Spirit to post an affirmation of my obedience.

The only way I can prove my credibility is to convince you that I am speaking the truth. If you are led by the Spirit of God and not your presuppositions you will know whether I am speaking the truth.

Your “flow” might work fine if I were giving a lecture on quantum string theory, and I had a masters degree in theoretical physics, but when debating theology and doctrine the only credentials relevant is the indwelling Holy Spirit, and personal study (otherwise most of us wouldn’t have any authority to be here).

BTW - I do have a degree in theology if that carries any weight with you.

John
www.gideonsword.net
In fact it does. So as the degree of many other Catholic theologians that believe otherwise from what you do. And others who believe the same as you… I guess you’re right that debating in ways of the “physical science” debates are not appropriate in debating with respect to faith theology. I stand corrected.👍

Still, this is my point of view. What you believe is different from what we believe. Truth is, there is no way you can say that what you say is the truth because as you said, there can’t be a “faxed letter from God”. You may be speaking the truth, but we think otherwise. Just as you think that what we believe is not of the truth. You don’t know the truth. You only think you know it. There’s no way to prove otherwise. I think that’s your view of us as well. So, I think that in terms of debunking beliefs, we are at a deadlock.
 
The way you said this is very telling by itself, and it actually confirms what many people have pointed out earlier.

You claim that as you were going around searching for a church, your goal was to find one that was “preaching and teaching the truth”. In other words, you already had a pre-conceived idea of what the “truth” was in your head BEFORE setting foot in any one of these churches. Until you found one that agreed with the scriptural interpretations that you had already made up your mind on, you simply dismissed them as “false”. It is the same thing you have been doing here so far.

If this debate has been fruitless up until now, it is only because you haven’t been open-minded enough to see that from an outside perspective all your arguments beg the question… Believe it or not, many other people read the very same Bible that you do, claim to have “guidance from the Holy Spirit” in proclaiming it, and yet they came to different conclusions than you. The only objective difference is “they said so” vs. “you said so”.

Also, please stop using the terms “scripture” and “my interpretation” interchangably. Thanks. 👍
Amen! Nicely said exolflare! 👍
 
ssejllenrad,
Your “flow” might work fine if I were giving a lecture on quantum string theory, and I had a masters degree in theoretical physics, but when debating theology and doctrine the only credentials relevant is the indwelling Holy Spirit, and personal study (otherwise most of us wouldn’t have any authority to be here).

BTW - I do have a degree in theology if that carries any weight with you.

John
www.gideonsword.net
does that degree teach you somting the holy spirit cant?
alexaustralia,

To prove the authenticity of my interpretation of the text in question, I can only ask those who question me to review the text, and humbly consider it… as I have done. Prayerfully consider my argument, ask the Holy Spirit to guide you in the truth without leaning on presuppositions you may have based on someone else’s teaching; ie. ECF’s.
John
www.gideonsword.net
we trust what the church teaches becasue it is guided by the holy spirit. the bible says it is not for personal interpritation. that is exactly what yoiu are doing. God gave us a guide and it is the Church. not someones personal interpritation.
 
John,
Just a few questions.
I was guided back to the Catholic Church by the Holy Spirit (praise God!). This I know.
You say you are guided in your interpretation of the God’s word by the Holy Spirit. As well a lot of others out there who will say they were guided by the Holy Spirit with a different interpretation. Why are you right? Who guided the other’s?

You have stated the ECF’s went astray. Where did they go wrong, and why.
So who are your ECF’s?

You have stated you worship the way the first Christians worship?
So how do you worship? And who were these first Christians?

God’s Peace,
Stephen
 
John
I have to ask
You stated that Jesus used irrational logic to basically drive away those who did not really believe in Him.

My question is why. Do you not think that if they would have believed Jesus of all people, could have had them believe, and if they would not believe, when He was crucified they would scatter.

There is no purpose in seperating the weeds from the grain until harvest time. So why would Christ do it?

Even if I accept your argument, you still do not have a reasonable “why”.

p.s.- if Christ taught with irrational logic, but did not explain it, even to the Apostles, wouldn’t that lead people into error about the teaching, and wouldn’t that be contrary to Christ mission
To lead people to Himself and to God?
 
I think we have all been conditioned, in one way or another, to treat the physical realm as wrong or bad and the spiritual realm as good and holy (at least God’s side). This may be part why BA disagrees with not only the early church fathers, but with the first 1500 years of church history in general.
To treat the bread and wine as the actual Body and Blood of Christ is to admit a reverence for the physical realm…many christians…even Catholics oppose this.
This stream of beliefs come from a form of Gnosticism, which denied the physical as being evil and the spirtual as being good. I’m not calling my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ gnostics…I’m simply stating that a bit of that area of belief bled into the Body of Christ over the centuries.
Like Yoda said…“We must unlearn what we have learned”. The Physical realm God made to be holy and precious…as corrupted by the Fall as it may be, the Eucharist not only is the Body and Blood of Christ, but it is God’s way of bringing the spiritual and physical back to harmoneous unity, the way it was before the Fall. The Restoration of all things is near, and the Eucharist is a sign of that restoration. Man united with God’s divinity by God immersing Himself into Humanity (The Incarnation).
I hope I’m making sense here, I hope I’m not being off theologically speaking…🙂
P7
 
visavismeyou,

I respect your conclusions, I would never ask that anyone concede to an argument of mine if my argument contradicted their convictions.

I can only try to convince you by reasoning with you through the scriptures.

John
www.gideonsword.net
Why wouldn’t you ask that? You believe you are divinely inspired in your interpretation. Why wouldn’t you ask them to concede out of faith?

You also claim to be so divinely inspired that those who were personal and direct disciples of St. John the Evangelist were heretics.

Finally, Scripture is to be taken as complete cloth. Your attempt to parse a particular discourse such that it can be distorted to fit your personal, individual agenda does a disservice to the Bread of Life Discourse but denigrates all of Scripture.

My pursuit of the Truth and Love of God is not motivated such that I will change God and Truth but that they will change me. Your approach is to try to change the Truth.
 
bibleapologist,

I have asked you to provide historical evidence that the entire Church was overcome by the heresy of the Real Presence at some early date, but you have not provided this evidence. So now I am going to make a smaller request. Rather than finding evidence of councils, wars, martyrs, writings that deal with the spreading of the heresy of the Real Presence in the early Church, I would just like you to cite 50 early Christian bishops or teachers (non-heretics, of course) who clearly deny the Real Presence. Can’t find 50? How about 40 then? Can’t find 40? How about 30? Can’t find 30? How about 20? Can’t find 20? How about 10?

Oh, and if you claim that you can’t find them because the Church destroyed all the evidence, then provide evidence of the Church boasting how it overcame the “heretics” who taught against the Real Presence. After all, we know that the Church makes a big deal over opposing heresy, so if the Church opposed this “heresy”, there would be a record of that opposition. So either way, there will be evidence (even if it is false evidence made up by the Church). Please cite this evidence in support of your position. Until you can do so, I will cite the complete lack of such evidence in support of the Catholic (and Orthodox) position.
 
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