Jesus did not die on Cross

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Hellisreal said:
I am a she, if you meant me.

So who is wrong?

Knit picking I see…

Fine with me.

Anything else while you are digging for splinters in others eye’s?
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and i apologize if i have offended you in anyway.
 
Hellisreal said:
Honest mistake! No offense taken.🙂
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Hi
I take no offence on it. You observed that others have some confusion about me , so in fact you helped to clear that away.
Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” - rather Jesus was not killed on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
 
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments that Jesus did not get killed on Cross:
alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

“Among the testimonies which show that Jesus (peace be on him) was saved from the Cross is the one narrated in Matthew, chapter 26, verses 36 to 46, which relate that after getting information, through revelation, of his impending arrest, Jesus prayed to God all night, on his face, and in tears, and such prayer offered with such humility, and for which Jesus had ample time, could not go unaccepted; for the cry of an elect of God, addressed at a time of distress, is never turned down. How was it then, that the prayer of Jesus which he had addressed all night with a painful heart and in a state of distress was rejected? Jesus had said: The Father who is in heaven listens to me. Therefore, when his prayer addressed in such a state of distress was not heard, how can it be said that God heard his prayers? The gospels also show that Jesus (peace be on him) was certain at heart that his prayer had been accepted; he had great confidence in that prayer. That is why when he was arrested and put on the Cross, and when he found the circumstances not according to his expectations, he involuntarily cried ‘Eli, Eli lama sabachthani’, meaning, ‘My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me.’, i.e., he did not expect that it would come to this – that he would die on the Cross. He believed that his prayer would be heard. So, both these references to the gospel show that Jesus firmly believed that his prayer would be heard and accepted, that his tearful supplications addressed throughout the night would not be wasted, whereas he had himself taught his disciples, on divine authority: When you pray, the prayer will be accepted. Further, he had also narrated the parable of the judge who feared neither man nor God. The purpose of this parable was that the disciples should realise that God undoubtedly answered prayers. Although Jesus knew from God that there was a great affliction in store for him, yet, like all righteous persons, he prayed to God, believing that there was nothing impossible for God and that God determined whether any events would happen or not. Therefore, the rejection of Jesus’ own prayer would have shaken the faith of the disciples. Was it possible to place before the disciples an example destructive of their faith? If they had seen with their own eyes that the prayer of a great prophet like Jesus, addressed all night with burning passion, was not accepted, the unfortunate example would have been very trying for their faith. Therefore, the Merciful God could not but have accepted this prayer. It is certain the prayer offered at Gethsemane was accepted.”
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments that Jesus did not get killed on Cross:
alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

“Among the testimonies which show that Jesus (peace be on him) was saved from the Cross is the one narrated in Matthew, chapter 26, verses 36 to 46, which relate that after getting information, through revelation, of his impending arrest, Jesus prayed to God all night, on his face, and in tears, and such prayer offered with such humility, and for which Jesus had ample time, could not go unaccepted; for the cry of an elect of God, addressed at a time of distress, is never turned down. How was it then, that the prayer of Jesus which he had addressed all night with a painful heart and in a state of distress was rejected? Jesus had said: The Father who is in heaven listens to me. Therefore, when his prayer addressed in such a state of distress was not heard, how can it be said that God heard his prayers? The gospels also show that Jesus (peace be on him) was certain at heart that his prayer had been accepted; he had great confidence in that prayer. That is why when he was arrested and put on the Cross, and when he found the circumstances not according to his expectations, he involuntarily cried ‘Eli, Eli lama sabachthani’, meaning, ‘My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me.’, i.e., he did not expect that it would come to this – that he would die on the Cross. He believed that his prayer would be heard. So, both these references to the gospel show that Jesus firmly believed that his prayer would be heard and accepted, that his tearful supplications addressed throughout the night would not be wasted, whereas he had himself taught his disciples, on divine authority: When you pray, the prayer will be accepted. Further, he had also narrated the parable of the judge who feared neither man nor God. The purpose of this parable was that the disciples should realise that God undoubtedly answered prayers. Although Jesus knew from God that there was a great affliction in store for him, yet, like all righteous persons, he prayed to God, believing that there was nothing impossible for God and that God determined whether any events would happen or not. Therefore, the rejection of Jesus’ own prayer would have shaken the faith of the disciples. Was it possible to place before the disciples an example destructive of their faith? If they had seen with their own eyes that the prayer of a great prophet like Jesus, addressed all night with burning passion, was not accepted, the unfortunate example would have been very trying for their faith. Therefore, the Merciful God could not but have accepted this prayer. It is certain the prayer offered at Gethsemane was accepted.”
Thanks
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Nonsense.
 
paarsurrey;2471358: Among the testimonies which show that Jesus (peace be on him) was saved from the Cross is the one narrated in Matthew:
Here you have quoted Scripture (Matthew 26:36-46), which is the recorded event of Jesus praying in the garden the night of His arrest. The first fact I want you to notice is the context of Jesus’ prayer…

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

…Jesus’ prayed for the cup to pass from Him, but notice what Jesus said to God? “Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” Though Jesus clearly did not want to die, His desire was for God’s will to be done, and not His own.

The second fact I want you to notice is that Jesus knew of His death before the night of the last supper…

Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem: and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

…Jesus being human, had the same emotions we have. I don’t know about you, but if I’m told I have to have surgery I get scared; and the closer the time comes for me to have the surgery the more scared I get. I don’t think Jesus’ fear in the garden was something that just happened that night; I think He may have been scared before, and the night of the prophecy to be fulfilled His fear came to full head.

The third and final fact I want you to notice is that if Jesus was saved from the cross as you claim, then why is it that Jesus died on the cross?..

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

Here we see that it is recorded that Jesus did indeed die on the cross as He yielded up the ghost. So your claim that Jesus was saved from the cross is a false claim.

Now let’s address why it was important for Jesus to die.

The first fact is that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin…

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

…no blood = no forgiveness. But why Jesus’ blood? Under the Old Covenant people had to provide to God the blood of bulls and goats for the atonement of their sins, but under the New Covenant God Himself provided the blood for the atonement for sin. This blood God provided was the blood of His own begotten Son. But why? The Scripture tells us why…

Hebrews 10:1-4 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

…the blood of the bulls and goats were not able to make the people perfect; the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins. Jesus’ blood takes away sins. Again, no blood = no forgiveness.

One final note in regards to Jesus’ prayer in the garden. Jesus did ask God to pass this cup from Him, but only if it was God’s will. It is obvious that Jesus’ will was not to die, or to have the cup passed from Him. It is crystal clear that Jesus could have indeed exercised His own will, and not have gone to the cross…

Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

…Yes, Jesus could have been saved from the cross, but by His own choice He chose to do God’s will and not His own will…

“nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Jesus’ will was to have the twelve legions of angels, but God’s will was for Jesus to drink of the cup. Jesus drank of the cup fulfilling God’s will, and praise be to God that Jesus laid down His life for His sheep. Amen.

In the name of Jesus,

Ken
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paarsurrey said:
The gospels also show that Jesus (peace be on him) was certain at heart that his prayer had been accepted; he had great confidence in that prayer. That is why when he was arrested and put on the Cross, and when he found the circumstances not according to his expectations, he involuntarily cried ‘Eli, Eli lama sabachthani’, meaning, ‘My God, my God why hast Thou forsaken me.’, i.e., he did not expect that it would come to this – that he would die on the Cross. He believed that his prayer would be heard.
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So, if I understand you correctly, you believe that Jesus did not die on the cross. Yet you DO believe that Jesus was actually nailed to the cross and that Jesus from the cross cried out this line from the Psalms.

So, how then, if the man on the cross is Jesus, and the man is dying, do you conclude that Jesus did NOT die on the cross?
paarsurrey said:
Therefore, the rejection of Jesus’ own prayer would have shaken the faith of the disciples. Was it possible to place before the disciples an example destructive of their faith? If they had seen with their own eyes that the prayer of a great prophet like Jesus, addressed all night with burning passion, was not accepted, the unfortunate example would have been very trying for their faith. Therefore, the Merciful God could not but have accepted this prayer. It is certain the prayer offered at Gethsemane was accepted."
Thanks
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And if one takes a look at the disciples in the time immediately following the crucifixion, this doubt is exactly what we do see. What restores their faith is not that Jesus didn’t die, but that faced with thre reality of Jesus’ death that he didn’t stay dead, that God raised him up from the dead.

You say: “Although Jesus knew from God that there was a great affliction in store for him, yet, like all righteous persons, he prayed to God, believing that there was nothing impossible for God and that God determined whether any events would happen or not.” Isn’t the Resurrection the greatest evidence available of that truth. There is a song in Christian circles, “He Could Have Called 10,000 Angels”. Yep, he could have. And perhaps he could have done whatever it is that you are going to suggest as well. But the truth is that he didn’t. That Jesus endured suffering on the cross even to and including death. And after his death, God heard and answered Jesus’ prayer for his will to be done, and he brought him back from the dead. And with his resurrection, all of us who have been baptized with Jesus into his death are also raised to new life with him as well. It is through the combination of BOTH his death AND his resurrection that we have new life secure with God in the heavens. You seek to rob the Crucifixion of its power. I submit to you that there is no salvation apart from Christ’s atoning sacrifice.
 
StMarkEofE said:
I just cant see the Apostles suffering torture and dying for a mere man. Jews just didnt do things like this back then. Remember the Apostles who retreated back in Jerusalem after the Crucificion and were afraid to be seen by anyone? These same Apostles were willing to die for this new faith afterwards. I wonder what changed their minds. Could it have been the Glorified Christ in their midsts?
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This to me is the strongest “hard” evidence of the Ressurection. These same men, when Jesus was arrested, fled like cowards (forgive the word). Only after seeing Him risen was their faith tempered to a hardened steel. After the Ressuction their “cowardlyness” disappeared. Nearly all died gruesome deaths without the least concern for themselves.

Now I’ve heard others say that many have died for their faith, including Muslims. That may be true, but they died for their beliefs. The Apostles died because of what the actually witnessed.

I would even venture to say they were more afraid NOT to die for their faith after seeing Jesus risen. Frankly, if I witnessed that it would frighten me!
 
Hi

The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments: alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html

“There is another point in this connection. Just as there was a conspiracy to kill Jesus, and for this propose the chief priests and the scribes assembled together at the palace of the high priest called Caiaphas to devise a plan to kill Jesus, so there was a conspiracy to murder Moses, and, likewise, there was a secret consultation in Mecca at the place called Dar-ul-Nadwa to murder our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him). But the powerful God saved both these great prophets from evil designs.

The conspiracy against Jesus was, in point of time, in between the other two. Then, why was not Jesus saved when he had prayed more vehemently than either? Why was not Jesus’ prayer heard, when God hears the prayers of His beloved servants and frustrates the plans of the wicked? All the righteous know by experience that the prayer of the distressed and the afflicted is accepted; nay, the hour of affliction, for a righteous person, is the hour for a sign.

I have had personal experience of this. A false charge of attempt to murder was brought against me two years ago by one, Dr. Martin Clark, a Christian, residing at Amritsar in the Punjab, before a court in the District of Gurdaspur, alleging that I had sent one, Abdul Hamid by name, to murder the said doctor. It so happened that I was opposed in this case by several scheming persons belonging to the three communities, namely Christians, Hindus and Muslims; they tried their best to prove the charge of attempted murder against me.

The Christians had against me the grievance that I was trying – and I am trying even now – to rescue humanity from the false ideas which Christians entertain regarding Jesus; and this was the first taste of the treatment that I had had from them. The Hindus were displeased with me because I had made a prophecy regarding the death of one, Lekh Ram, a Pandit, with his consent, and the prophecy was fulfilled within the appointed time – a terrible sign from God.

Likewise, the Muslim Maulvis were angry because I was opposed to the idea of a bloody Messiah and to the doctrine of Jihad as understood by them. So, some important personages of these three communities counselled together with a view to proving the charge of murder against me, so that I should either be hanged or imprisoned. They were thus an unjust people in the sight of God.”
Unquote

Thanks

I quote from the PromisedMessiah, to make it convenient for my Catholic friends to convert me to their cherished faith, if they refute his argument and the argument exceeds that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s arguments, since I being steadfast on my faith I keep a window or door open to welcome the truth from anywhere it comes to me. The Catholics are in contest with Mirza Ghulam Ahmad directly in this way.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
The PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 continues his arguments: alislam.org/library/books…india/ch1.html
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a man of strong convictions you are not.
Your final comment reads like that of a prostitute offering herself to the highest bidder, you my friend are as Jesus said of your father the devil and for that reason you know only lies, you have made the truth a lie and a Lie the truth.

God is a Just and loving God, repent and be saved, for you will not find God in an organization, seek him were he can be found.
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Are you trying to say that, since you accurately predicted someone’s death, that means you are in some way favoured by God and that this makes you correct in the claims you make toward your faith?

My stepson also was ‘spoken’ to by God. He used this justification to try and convert my minor children out of the faith I am raising them in (Catholic). He is a poor husband and a worse father. He enjoys power. When I think of him I think of Jim Jones. I am quite sure the voice he hears is his own.

Though I sympathize with you in your difficulties, I’m afraid you are mistaken. Unless you are able to approach God in humility, there is probably nothing here for you to learn.
 
revmarty said:
a man of strong convictions you are not.
Your final comment reads like that of a prostitute offering herself to the highest bidder, you my friend are as Jesus said of your father the devil and for that reason you know only lies, you have made the truth a lie and a Lie the truth.

God is a Just and loving God, repent and be saved, for you will not find God in an organization, seek him were he can be found.
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Hi

May GodAllahYHWH bless you and guide you to the true path.

Thanks

**The ultimate truth about Jesus is that he died in Kashmir

Deuteronomy 18:20-22. “But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
Because of his righteousness, Jesus prayers were heard, and he was saved from getting a cursed killing on Cross.
Hebrews 5:7 (NIV)
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.**
 
Mjae said:
Are you trying to say that, since you accurately predicted someone’s death, that means you are in some way favoured by God and that this makes you correct in the claims you make toward your faith?

My stepson also was ‘spoken’ to by God. He used this justification to try and convert my minor children out of the faith I am raising them in (Catholic). He is a poor husband and a worse father. He enjoys power. When I think of him I think of Jim Jones. I am quite sure the voice he hears is his own.

Though I sympathize with you in your difficulties, I’m afraid you are mistaken. Unless you are able to approach God in humility, there is probably nothing here for you to learn.
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Hi

I could not comprehend to which post does your this one post belong. Is it a response of some of my post?

Kindly clarify.

Thanks

**If a man fulfills the Criteria of a truthful Prophet or does not come under the ambit of Criteria of a false Prophet; then it would not be truthful to not accept one such claimant. I may mention here that to reject even one truthful ProphetMessenger is denying the institution of ProphethoodMessengership and tantamount to a rebellion against GodAllahYHWH and denial of all the ProphetsMessengers one believes in. In my view it would be a wicked thing to reject. **
 
I am troubled 17 now. Yet what should I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But it was for this purpose that I came to this hour.
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John 12:27

Paarsurrey

Jesus is both man and God. As a man, He asked to be spared but what you leave out is that Jesus says not my will be done but God’s will be done. God’s will is for our salvation which was accomplished by the death of Jesus. As Jesus says, He could not be saved from this hour for it was why He was born. It was His purpose.
 
adrift said:
John 12:27

Paarsurrey

Jesus is both man and God. As a man, He asked to be spared but what you leave out is that Jesus says not my will be done but God’s will be done. God’s wills was our salvation which was accomplished by the death of Jesus. As Jesus says, He could not be saved from this hour for it was why He was born. It was His purpose.
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Hi

Jesus was never a god, he was a Son of Man only. If you insist that he was god, then kindly reply my posts on the thread **Punishment for a claimant of deity in OTBible ** forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2525270#post2525270

Thanks

Adam was not the first human being, he was the first person with whom GodAllahYHWH had a direct conversation, and there were human beings men/woman before Adam and Eve having body and soul like Adam.
There is no such thing as not having a soul. Everything that has a form has a soul. But, not everything has a human soul or a spiritual soul that can survive the death of the body.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Jesus was never a god, he was a Son of Man only. If you insist that he was god, then kindly reply my posts on the thread **Punishment for a claimant of deity in OTBible ** forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2525270#post2525270

Thanks

Adam was not the first human being, he was the first person with whom GodAllahYHWH had a direct conversation, and there were human beings men/woman before Adam and Eve having body and soul like Adam.
There is no such thing as not having a soul. Everything that has a form has a soul. But, not everything has a human soul or a spiritual soul that can survive the death of the body.
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Jesus said He was God. I believe Him. Divinity of Jesus I don’t see the need to address this in another thread.
 
adrift said:
Jesus said He was God. I believe Him. Divinity of Jesus I don’t see the need to address this in another thread.
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Hi

My dear Catholic friend!

You are free to believe whatever you like. Jesus Son of Man freed his followers and made them free birds, but Paul an enemy of Jesus and his followers trapped them again.

This is my confirmed opinion, others are welcome to differ with me.

Thanks

If one wants to trace Jesus after when he departed from Galilee, please focus your attention on Mary and you would find them both together, mother and child.
 
I am sorry you didn’t read my link as your swift reply indicates.

Does this not prove that you are not really here to seek truth?
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

My dear Catholic friend!

You are free to believe whatever you like. Jesus Son of Man freed his followers and made them free birds, but Paul an enemy of Jesus and his followers trapped them again.

This is my confirmed opinion, others are welcome to differ with me.

Thanks

If one wants to trace Jesus after when he departed from Galilee, please focus your attention on Mary and you would find them both together, mother and child.
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You seem a nice fellow, but you are full of nonsense and you are becoming boring. You are convincing no one. You have had many proofs of the divinity of Jesus, but you have ignored them all and keep referring to some bogus latter-day “prophet”. This “prophet” has no credibility and makes you no better than some mormon, followers of false prophets and false religion. Wise up.
 
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