Jesus did not establish this church?

[Kev]

mercygate:

That would be true only in the vaguest sense that the whole Church effects the consecration. However, there is no “new tradition/understanding/or practice” with the Mass of Paul VI. We still need the consecrated hands of the ministerial Priesthood to confect the Sacrament. The Catechism is clear on that.

You could ask the professor for a magisterial document supporting her claim. That would not be confrontational.

You could say: Professor, last time in class you said XXXX but I have heard others claim just the opposite as stated in paragraph XX of the Catechism and in XXXXXX document of the Second Vatican Council. Could you please provide me with a citation to magisterial documents supporting your position?

You also NEED to get a copy of the Documents of the Second Vatican Council. The EWTN web site has 'em all available on line.

Her point was, everyone participates in the mass, both male and female, and everyone in the mass particpates with the priest during consecration, so there is no reason we can’t change the rules and allow priests to be married and to be female. She wanted someone to argue this with her, but we all just sat there and stared at her - even though I know most of us disagree.

Now, I’d also like to point out that the handouts and other reading material in the discipleship class is good-stuff. It is only when we discuss Regina Coll’s book that the class seems to be more about promoting the feminist movement in the church than formation in discipleship.

In our homework, in response to the question “What surprised you most about last week’s readings?” I replied:

That I’m taking a class on discipleship and reading a book written by an author other than Jesus or a church father. I mean, are we being educated to be disciples of Jesus as seen through the eyes of Sister Regina Coll?

Please say a prayer for my professor, classmates, and myself. I think I am going to have to confront the professor on some things. I just need to be prepared for this.

 

[Kev]

mspencer:

I just thought I would put my scattered thoughts out.
I think this is a situation that calls for much prayer. Maybe one good person to pray to is Saint Michael the Archangel.
I don’t think that this is a good environment to learn about the faith to say the least, and somehow you should take into account the fact that you should learn about the faith somehow. What you should do in the present situation calls for prayer, and you ought to take into account what is best for you. Should you even stay in the class or not? You have to decide for yourself. Or perhaps being there is beneficial for you? You are the one who best can see all sides of the situation.
Soon all U.S. seminaries will be visited by Church delegates to see if for example dissent is being taught there. When they come they will seek information from all students there now as well as all students who have there the last four years. (I don’t know though if this will cover those who only take one class.) You ought to consider beforehand what you would say if they call on you for information…

We had an auditor from the Vatican in our class last week. We thought he was there to look for signs of homosexual priests and wondered why he was in our class. Because our class is for Lay Pastoral Ministry certifications…I wonder what he thought about our discussions on Regina’s book…thanks for the suggestion to pray. Sometimes it’s easy to forget that there is a great source of power through prayer.

<>

 

[Ignatius]

I’d drop that class. Why waste your time on a class that supports positions in opposition to the teachings of the Church?

 

[Mystophilus]

But for Grace:

Mystophilus - when did I ever say that it had anything to do with you? I have never seen you try to teach your point of view as official Church dogma and doctrine, but rather you seem to always indicate that it is your own opinion. There is one thing disagreeing with the Church and another disobeying it.

PM me if you wish to talk about it more or try to catch me with an IM I am more than willing to talk

Thanks; I was just checking.

 

[Mystophilus]

Kev ><>:

At one point during the class discussion on female priests, the professor made the statement that all believers are apostles, and then she paused and looked up the class and said “does anyone have a problem with that? - Good.”

At first glance, this seems linguistically accurate: an “apostle” is merely “one who has been sent” (which is remarkably similar to ‘angel’, i.e., ‘messenger’, now that I think of it). As I mentioned, Jesus reserves the right to send whomsoever he pleases, and so anyone can become an apostle. However, messengers do not send themselves. This then draws us into the territory of prophets and false prophets: if God calls you, you’re it; if God doesn’t call you, do not presume to take the office upon yourself.

and continued on discuss that we (the body of believers) consecrate the Eucharist with the priest and that this is a new tradition/understanding/practice established in the post Vatican II mass.

This is not my field, and so anything that I say should be taken as pure speculation.

I would say that it is God who consecrates, and, therefore, the presence or absence of any mortal (priest included) is optional. Thus, believers without a priest could pray to God, and God could choose to consecrate the Eucharist.

Then, of course, we need to step from “could” to “would”. I cannot see any reason why believers who were unable to have a priest present would be denied the consecration, but I would suspect that those who refuse to have a priest present might be denied it because what they are doing involves not so much an act of worship as an act of politics. The same principles could then apply to the situation in which a priest participates in an Eucharist led by a woman: it would depend upon people’s motivations for their actions. Thus, I would suggest that it all comes down to the Almighty’s response and that, historically, has depended heavily upon the attitudes in the hearts of the believers.

 

[Mystophilus]

Kev ><>:

In our homework, in response to the question “What surprised you most about last week’s readings?” I replied:
That I’m taking a class on discipleship and reading a book written by an author other than Jesus or a church father. I mean, are we being educated to be disciples of Jesus as seen through the eyes of Sister Regina Coll?

How about being educated to be disciples of Jesus, and considering the viewpoints of others regarding who he is and what that discipleship means?

The most important lesson which I learnt in university is this: listen to everything, but believe nothing immediately. Suspend judgement, consider, evaluate, and take what is good.

Test all things; hold fast what is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

 

[Mickey]

Mystophilus:

I would say that it is God who consecrates, and, therefore, the presence or absence of any mortal (priest included) is optional. Thus, believers without a priest could pray to God, and God could choose to consecrate the Eucharist.

It is God who consecrates through the priest or bishop who has received the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Peace,
Mickey

 

[Strider]

Kev ><>:

We confronted the teacher of the class with the CCC definition and we were told that the CCC was written for the bishops of the Catholic church and that there will be a new copy coming out for the laity, so the implication was - please don’t quote from the CCC because it was not written to be read by us!

Kevin,
This has been bothering me for two days. Below is the link to Fedei Depositum, JPII’s Apostolic Letter introducing the CCC.
Please take special note of the third paragraph under .3 Doctrinal Value of the Text
"…I ask the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism…and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19921011_fidei-depositum_en.html

Yes, a compendium is being translated now, but the large, original CCC is for everyone, epecially the faithful - us - to use.
Please make this crystal clear to your professor. Because of her position, she must be made aware of this.
She is incorrect in refusing to allow you to make arguments from the CCC. It is the great gift of JPII to the Church.

 

[mercygate]

Strider:

Kevin,
This has been bothering me for two days. Below is the link to Fedei Depositum, JPII’s Apostolic Letter introducing the CCC.
Please take special note of the third paragraph under .3 Doctrinal Value of the Text
"…I ask the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism…and to use it assiduously in fulfilling their mission of proclaiming the faith and calling people to the Gospel life.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19921011_fidei-depositum_en.html

Yes, a compendium is being translated now, but the large, original CCC is for everyone, epecially the faithful - us - to use.
Please make this crystal clear to your professor. Because of her position, she must be made aware of this.
She is incorrect in refusing to allow you to make arguments from the CCC. It is the great gift of JPII to the Church.

Somehow I missed that comment from Kev that the teacher didn’t want people to quote the Catechism because it’s for bishops. I’ve been told that also. But what is the Bishop’s job? One of 'em is to hold to the true teaching of the Church, so if the *Catechism *is for Bishops (and Strider shows that it is also for the faithful), how does this teacher justify asking for the “layman’s” edition – which has been published in Italian and contains nothing contrary to the full *Catechism *but is shorter and done in the more traditional Q&A format? This woman is incompetent to stand in front of a college class.

Kev, you are in a grotesque class! God help ya! (and he WILL).

You are at a point where you need to tread a very careful line. Serpents & doves. Serpents & doves. It would be rude and arrogant to confront the teacher openly in class more forcefully than you have. As a relative “newbie” you could also quickly get in over your head. But keep collecting the evidence. How much damage can this woman do? Does she teach anything else?

Perhaps connect with a couple of other students who understand the problem as you do. Gather the evidence over a period of weeks – preferably getting the professor to commit herself in writing, though that might be difficult. It might be just as well to have your group of students photocopy their notes and highlight the relevant passages, and present your concerns to … whom? Perhaps the head of the department (who is probably just as “out there” as this teacher) with cc’s to the Rector of the seminary and to the Bishop?

Shucks! Presumably, you’re paying good money for this course. Come to think of it, you may be getting a waaaayyy better education because this dudette is so far off the wall than you would if you were in an orthodox setting. Nothing teaches you the faith like having to defend it.

Kev, I will offer my time before the Blessed Sacrament tomorrow for your intention.