Jesus didnt build a Bible He built a church

[Even_So]

ok
That’s funny but it really isn’t an answer, is it.

So you do admit you depend on others for your bible?
At least, I hear you saying you depend on others for the physical possession of your bible.
Me too. We have something in common. It was given to me by others, explained by others, translated by others. It originated with others.

So it’s great that you have a sense that your bible came from others. What about a little deeper question:
Where did your parents get it from? We can assume they did not write it.

We can see the obvious issue as the question easily reduces itself to Jesus speaking and living with his disciples 2000 years ago, at a time when the written word did not yet exist.

?

Well it had to start so somewhere

 

[Even_So]

But Justin Martyr tells us that they used letters from the apostles to read and expound on during their services. How exciting it must have been for them to hear words from the apostles.

Blessings!

Rita

Amen Rita. A voice of reasoning. GOD bless you

 

[Even_So]

One of the answers to this question goes like this:
“Paul and Peter and Mark and Luke etc…wrote it. No Church was required.”
But that is not an answer.

None of them wrote the whole thing. The gospels were written at different times far removed from the events. None of them wrote at the same time in the same place. Most of them never even met Jesus. The question remains, where did the written word come from?

All of them lived in community with others and depended on others. Word of mouth,. Authoritative word of mouth. (we can debate Paul’s visions and travelogue and Revelations). Every one of them, without exception, heardand lived the word first, before picking up the pen.
None of them are God, they are human beings subject to others.

It is easily as credible to say that the first Christian campfires are as authoritative as the written word which came out of them.

Most of whom never met JESUS? The writers or scribes? The apostles penned nothing or something or everything? I’m a tad confused. If they picked up a pen, which there were none to be a smart alec. You really want to debate Paul’s experience on the Damascus road? Why?

 

[Even_So]

Did Jesus appear to your parents and declare the book He gave them was His word?

Yes you do.

Who had authority to declare that the 66 books in your Bible are God’s word? Why is it 66 and not 73? Who had authority to take out 7 books? Where did they get such authority?

Why is that? And who had authority to take books out of your Bible?

Is He spose to?
No, I dont. I need a Bible.
I heard some books were removed due to lack of proof of authorship at the time.
My guess is it was GOD’S will.

 

[Even_So]

You do understand that the vast majority of what Jesus said during the incarnation was never written down? The Gospel of John states so rather plainly.

Do you believe what is written is enough? Was it really a vast majority? How many more miracles do we need to see?

 

[Even_So]

This is insinuating that the Catholic Church forbids marriage for priests and nuns? I apologize now if I am wrong.

Marriage is a sacrament, one of 7, in the Catholic Church and is far from forbidding it.

There is this prophetic statement in the Gospel from the Lord in Matthew.

**Matthew 19:12 **

“and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Forgive me if that is not what you were saying.

I didn’t see that anywhere, Knight. 'Course I could be wrong. Nor did I see a whore of babylon thing mentioned that needed such a lengthy response.

 

[Even_So]

Because it shows that the Bible is far from rom a complete record of Jesus’ sayings and doings and is never meant to be such. It excludes some stuff which I for one think would be pretty helpful to know, and certainly worthy of recordd. What exactly, for example, did Jesus teach in the Temple while He was lost as a tenager that was so profound that those who heard it marvelled at His wisdom at that tender age? What did He write in the sand that was so powerful that it persuaded the persecutors of the woman caught in adultery to look to their own sins and not hers?

We would all love to know thst. We can ask Him in due time.

 

[Even_So]

How can you tell what JESUS and Paul said if you do not have the Bible to tell you what they said. How can you have the Bible that tells you waht they said if there is no Church that put the Bible together; the Bible did not fall like manna from the sky. Finally, how can you reject the translation of the Bible that the Church put together that tells you what JESUS and Paul said and instead prefer to use the your translation or the translation of others.

Can I understand from your statement that the Church was not capable of correctly translating the Word of God from Greek to English, hence you are relying on another translation? If you believe that the Bible is the Word of God (based on the Church saying so, unless it was the Holy Spirit that told you so) and the Bible contains no errors, why can you not accept the Church’s english versionof the Bible. The same Spirit that ensured the preparation of the Bible in Greek by the Church without error would have also ensured the correct translation of the Bible from Greek to English.

1st sentence answer: huh? The Church was in it’s infancy. Interpreters interpreted. So was it by spirit or church? The Church gets too much credit .

 

[Even_So]

That’s a good question, and one that should probably be directed to the author, John.

It’s valuable in this discussion because it draws attention to the reality that in addition to what is written, we have personhood.

Yeah, so what?

Christ is a person, not a book. The apostles were persons, not books. They are not just words on a page, they were persons who lived in a real community with each other, interacted with each other in real time, had real gifts that were exercised for the good of all. They were The Church.

And I suppose that is why St John was inspired to include the observation that there is more than what is written, so that we might be drawn to the richness of life that lies unwritten in the people of the Church, but that is nonetheless very real. Tradition. This richness of life is a gift passed from person to person, through time, continuously. It is the breath of the Holy Spirit, passed on. Much of it becomes written, but it lives in Christ, who is a person, through his Church, which is made up of persons.

The book cannot contain the whole essence of the faith. It is an integral part of it.

All due respect to everyone here, but this is why I question any church. CHRIST is no person to be compared with any others. CHRIST is LORD! It is His Church. I belong to Him.

 

[Even_So]

The Bible did come from the church however. 1st Timothy 3:15 says the church is the pillar of truth. Paul writes several times that we are to hold fast to the traditions that have been passed down to us.

For at least the first 300+ years, there was no official canon. It was not till the latter part of the 4th century that the Bible as we know it was created. By the very church that is the supposed whore of Babylon.

So, what did the first Christians rely on? They did not have pocket bibles and even if they did, most of them did not know how to read.

I was once told by a baptist that the King James Version of the Bible was the only true word of God and anything apart from that, is not from God. I then asked to show me where it says that. To which he frustratingly said it does not say that in there. So,I said that is interesting. So, what you claim is not written in there, and you just said if it is not written in there, that it is NOT from God. So I asked, what am now to conclude?

The KJV was not written until 1611, and that version did include the 7 books of the deuterocanonicals. They were later taken out.

We see in the Book of Acts how the Church has been the authority through Christ to set dogma. If the Church was indeed bound by scripture, then by what authority were they able to set dogma? Why was the church allowed to do that?

Did the church cease to have authority upon he death of the disciples? Then by what authority did Paul (not one of the twelve) have to write church doctrine and be the author of nearly 75% of the New Testament?

Which one of the 50,000 versions is the “true one?” These are basically rhetorical questions. I just get confused about certain claims or proclamations and how it fits with historical events.

And 1 Timothy 3:16 says…

 

[Peter_J]

All due respect to everyone here, but this is why I question any church.

So, by “this” you mean something that someone posted on a web page, right?

 

[LilyM]

Do you believe what is written is enough? Was it really a vast majority? How many more miracles do we need to see?

If what was written is enough, then why commission apostles to preach or pastors to teach? Why a Church and not a 1st-century version of the Gideons devoted simply to copying and distributing Bibles? Oh wait, even that is discussed in Scripture. The Ethiopian didn’t need merely the text, he needed Phillip (who was careful to meet with all the other Apostles to ensure that their teaching was consistent) to explain it to him! It isn’t about miracles, it is about finding a teacher - and not just any teacher, since tge Devil can cite scripture for his purpose, but one with Christ-guarded, institutional authority.

 

[zz912]

For example?

The nature of the Trinity, the divinity and personhood of the Holy Spirit, the dual natures of Christ, the nature of the Theotokos, etc etc etc.

There are also many things where it could be unclear based upon which Scripture verses you look at. Things like statues and icons, the days of worship, etc.

The entirety of the Christian faith is not written down. Scripture contains much, but it does not contain all of it.

 

[zz912]

Is He spose to?
No, I dont. I need a Bible.
I heard some books were removed due to lack of proof of authorship at the time.
My guess is it was GOD’S will.

You seem to be missing the fact that you rely on the Bible as your source of the Christian faith. But where does this claim come from?

Did God make a personal appearance to you and declare the Bible is His word and is the sole source of the Christian faith? Or did another person give it to you? You answered your parents. So where did they get it from? Answer: another person. And so on.

So where did the Bible come from? (Catholic bishops decided which books were allowed to be read in the Mass in the 300’s AD)

And who declared that the 66/73 books are God’s word? (Catholic bishops decided which books. And 1500 years after Jesus, and 1100 years after the Catholic bishops decided which books, Martin Luther took out 7 of those books based on his own personal authority.)

And who declared that the Bible is the sole rule of the Christian faith? (Martin Luther declared it based on nothing more than his own personally-granted authority.)

 

[zz912]

All due respect to everyone here, but this is why I question any church. CHRIST is no person to be compared with any others. CHRIST is LORD! It is His Church. I belong to Him.

Your whole premise here assumes you know God’s will and kerygma, and can determine what is true and what is not.

Why should we accept you as the infallible determiner of the Christian faith? Where did you receive such authority?

 

[zz912]

And 1 Timothy 3:16 says…

Well 1 Timothy 3:15 says the Church (not the Bible) is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[Even_So]

So, by “this” you mean something that someone posted on a web page, right?

I mean the post. Poster states CHRIST is a person. I disagree. I don’t even know my own pastor’s position, it is my own. Since the majority of Catholics take the church’s position, I figure it is just that. CHRIST our LORD deserves our respect in that.

 

[clem456]

I mean the post. Poster states CHRIST is a person. I disagree. I don’t even know my own pastor’s position, it is my own. Since the majority of Catholics take the church’s position, I figure it is just that. CHRIST our LORD deserves our respect in that.

Let me see if I understand you.

You do not believe Jesus Christ is a person? By person we do not mean merely and exclusively a human being.

Christ is a divine person who is also fully human, while being fully divine.
God is a Trinity of 3 distinct persons, who are united as one in Love.

Christ is God’s full and final revelation. All else is summed up in him. At it’s core, our faith is in a Person, not a book.

These realities are all over the scriptures.

 

[hazcompat]

Hebrews 14 Now since the children share in blood and flesh, he likewise shared in them, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
15 and free those who through fear of death had been subject to slavery all their life.
16 Surely he did not help angels but rather the descendants of Abraham;
17therefore, he had to become like his brothers in every way, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.
1
Peace

 

[clem456]

Praise God for that verse Haz.

16 For God so loved the world that he gave[a] his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.

His Son!!! If that doesn’t point us toward personhood, I don’t know what could.

God, the person who is love by his own identification, loves us by giving us his Son.
The language of love is a language of relationship between persons. This language of relationship is sourced in our foundational Christian belief, the Trinity. Three persons in love, breathing forth creation.

And He created man in his image…

As persons.

He comes to live among us.
God is all powerful. He can do anything he please, in any way he pleases, in his time, according to his holy will.
But he did not settle for giving us a book. He gave us his very self, his person.
Jesus lived among us, who are human persons. He touched us, breathed on us, rubbed mud in our eyes and healed us, touched our ears and made us to hear him.

He was on the road with his disciples, talking to them, teaching them, interacting with them, telling them

do this…

What an awesome responsibility Christ gave directly to those persons he lived among, and to us as well.
What awesome respect Christ has for human beings. Such respect that

he accepted death, even death on a cross

If all we have is a book, his life and death are wasted on us. We have a community of persons, a Church, with Christ as it’s head.

18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.