Jesus didn't want them to be saved?

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mystagogia87

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I’m troubled by Mark 4:10-12.

"And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

It seems here that Jesus is saying he is expressing himself in a certain way so that some people will NOT be saved. But didn’t he want everyone to be saved?
 
In my opinion, I think Jesus is telling everyone about those who do not accept or agree with the Catholic Church that he founded. He says that if they convert, their sins will be forgiven. Now let me say this right now: IT IS GOD’S JUDGEMENT! Not ours. We only state what we receive through the Holy Spirit. Now here’s what the Roman Catholic Church (which i am) has to say: Those who know that God founded the Catholic Church through Christ as the necessary means to salvation, yet still refuse to enter it or remain in it, cannot be saved (see Lumen Gentium 14).
(catecheticsonline.com/wiki/index.php?title=Does_The_Church_Teach_That_Only_Catholics_Can_Be_Saved%3F)
To sum it all up, those who persecute the Church because of our beliefs and even are asked to enter and refuse, well then they might have some explaining to do.

May the Holy Trinity guide you!
 
It may be that Jesus was using a form of speech, such as cynacism, in order to draw attention to his teaching and use it as wake up call to its importance. Often times when we hear something it just wizzes by us. This is a way of shaking us up. That if we don’t listen to this, we are going to be in a bad position. He uses “them” (Pharisees) as a teaching tool for us.
 
mystagogia87 said:
I’m troubled by Mark 4:10-12.

"And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

It seems here that Jesus is saying he is expressing himself in a certain way so that some people will NOT be saved. But didn’t he want everyone to be saved?
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D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 10. When he was alone: in Greek Ote egeneto Katamonas; i.e. when he was retired and alone, either in the house, out of the city, or at a distance from the multitude. (Tirinus)

Ver. 11. Such as are out of the Church, though they both hear and read, they cannot understand. (Ven. Bede, in Chap. iv, Mark.)

Ver. 12. That seeing they may see, &c. In punishment of their wilfully shutting their eyes, (Matthew xiii. 15.) God justly withdrew those lights and graces which otherwise he would have given them, for their effectual conversion. (Challoner) — These speeches here and elsewhere, we are not to understand as if he spoke in parables to this end that the hearers might not understand, lest they should be converted; but we must learn the true sense from the corresponding texts in Matthew xiii, and Acts xxviii, where our Saviour and St. Paul render it thus: with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut. lest, perhaps, they may see, and understand, and be converted, and I heal them. Whereby it is evident, that the speaking in parables was not the cause, (for many besides the apostles heard and understood) but themselves, who would not hear and understand, and be converted: and thus they were the real cause of their own wilful and obstinate infidelity. And therefore also he spoke in parables, because they were not worthy to understand, as the others were to whom he expounded them. (Bristow)
 
mystagogia87 said:
I’m troubled by Mark 4:10-12.
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An arch Calvinist would probably say the passage is one of many that teaches election (God has certain people whom he predestined to be saved).

Also, Paul sounds a lot like your troubling passage in 1 Corinthians 1:18-25, as well as a little further down in 2:6-8 and 12-14.

Here’s a really good commentary:
Jesus’ uses of parables confirms the existing openeness or hardness of people towards God and his kingdom. Those who are receptive to that kingdom respond, but those who are already hardened are confirmed in their hardness of heart. The same was true in Isaiah’s day; his ministry was used by God to confirm the hardness of heart already present in Israel.
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  1. The mystery of the kingdom is in fact bound up with the presence of Jesus the King. But it also has its roots in Daniel 2, where the same Greek word (mustarion) used here also occurs in the LXX to refer to the mystery of God establishing his own eternal kingdom.
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  1. Jesus’ use of Isaiah 6:9 confirms that he is confronting a similar hard-heartedness as Isaiah did. As a result the judgment on hardened Israel will be the same in Jesus’ day as then - missing out on God’s purposes and kingdom. It also explains the “insiders-outsiders” theme in Mark; some understand and are “insiders” while others are hardened and remain “outside”
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  1. The larger context of Mark makes it clear that Israel and her leadership have rejected God’s kingdom and Jesus as King. Eventually this hardness leads them to successfully seek his death, and in paradoxically doing so play a key role in key event in the kingdom - the vicarious death of the King for his people.
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This is taken from here (10:06 a.m.) and has other interesting commentaries on the passage as well.
 
Bballer32 said:
In my opinion, I think Jesus is telling everyone about those who do not accept or agree with the Catholic Church that he founded. He says that if they convert, their sins will be forgiven. Now let me say this right now: IT IS GOD’S JUDGEMENT! Not ours. We only state what we receive through the Holy Spirit. Now here’s what the Roman Catholic Church (which i am) has to say: Those who know that God founded the Catholic Church through Christ as the necessary means to salvation, yet still refuse to enter it or remain in it, cannot be saved (see Lumen Gentium 14).
(catecheticsonline.com/wiki/index.php?title=Does_The_Church_Teach_That_Only_Catholics_Can_Be_Saved%3F)
To sum it all up, those who persecute the Church because of our beliefs and even are asked to enter and refuse, well then they might have some explaining to do.

May the Holy Trinity guide you!
Click to expand...
You are Totally Correct in saying ONLY God Decides Who is Saved, as the Catechism Also points out. Jesus Is Love, wants Every One to be saved. But we have to Try to Live His Way, Not ours. The 2 Key Verses in the New Testament were Recently In the Gospel: “***Love The Lord Your God. Love Your Neighbor as Yourself” (Who is my Neighbor? the Beggar, the widowed, the Jailed: EVERY ONE.) *** as a pope Recently Said, If we Live Those 2 Verses, there would be No Wars, No Arguments, no Anger, Hatred.
  • Only Those who KNOW, and Sanelly Reject The Church May be Doomed. It should be partial insanity to Know the Catholic Church, and Reject it.
The Church teaches that Anyone, Muslim, Budhist, can be saved. I can’t find the Catechism Citation now, which answers extremly well. Few realize how Ideal the Catholic Church Is, and How Idealistically it helps Us be the Best, Ideal We can Be, in Every aspect of life. Almost all who reject it are for false reasons. The Church has All the Ideal Answers; I’ve searched, and Found them, Any category. 👍 So does evryone go to Heaven? 100% NO: There is The Purging Condition (Purgatory in Old And New Testaments), And Hell. Hell is Best known as Being In the Presence of 100% IDEAL LOVE, PERFECTION GOD , then Removed, Temporarily, or Hell: Permanently.
 
Nobody has answered my original question. Let me clarify. Here’s the troubling quote again:

“unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them”

It seems here that Jesus is saying, “I teach in a way that can’t be understood by certain people, so that they will not understand or be saved.”

Why would he teach in such a way as to EXCLUDE certain people from salvation?
 
God moves us because we are made for good, ulitmate good which is God. He is transcendent, not just at the end of the path but His life is the deeper truth of which the true path consists. Those who block this ultimately get what they ask for but God does not give up on them, it is their blocking God’s moving them to the true good that results in their looking but not seeing and hearing but not understanding.

It is not in our power to accept and gain God’s Grace, which is His life in us. Today’s notions of philosophical truth are varying levels of material and mechanistic deficiencies that fail to illuminate the true transcendent glory of creation and the Creator.

We are created for ultimate good and we are moved by God to this fullness through created good and truth. When we accept the lesser good as an end in itself, we fail to be worthy of the deeper transcendent Good that is from God and which leads us back to Him.

Humility is paramount in importance to this acceptance, as is obedience, and this makes us open to accept grace. We make ourselves unworthy of God’s Grace by rejecting His perfecting movements by accepting lesser created goods, lesser truths, and our own way and path.

1 Corinthians 4:7 “For who distinguisheth thee? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?” Ultimately, we can only reject and fail, any and all of our success and good comes completely from God. It is this that Mark 4: 10-13 refers.
 
To warn us. Thats why i through in that extra stuff. And i totally agree with you AntalKalnoky!
 
found some commentry by someone ,-

The way of teaching that Christ used with the multitude (v. 2); He taught them many things, but it was by parables or similitudes, which would tempt them to hear; for people love to be spoken to in their own language, and careless hearers will catch at a plain comparison borrowed from common things, and will retain and repeat that, when they have lost, or perhaps never took, the truth which it was designed to explain and illustrate: but unless they would take pains to search into it, it would but amuse them; seeing they would see, and not perceive (v. 12); and so, while it gratified their curiosity, it was the punishment of their stupidity; they wilfully shut their eyes against the light, and therefore justly did Christ put it into the dark lantern of a parable, which had a bright side toward those who applied it to themselves, and were willing to be guided by it; but to those who were only willing for a season to play with it, it only gave a flash of light now and then, but sent them away in the dark. It is just with God to say of those that will not see, that they shall not see, and to hide from their eyes, who only look about them with a great deal of carelessness, and never look before them with any concern upon the things that belong to their peace.
 
Or this-

Salvation is Not for Everyone?
It is no surprise that Jesus’ apostles didn’t understand what he was talking about when he delivered his parable about the seeds and the sower. It appears to be metaphorical, so the meaning isn’t immediately obvious or intuitive to everyone hearing it. Naturally, they ask him about it.

Stranger than even the parable is Jesus’ response here, which is that the parable is supposed to be a mystery and that most people aren’t supposed to understand it. This is one of the most controversial passages in the entire New Testament. The apostles will be given the keys to interpretation, apparently, but not everyone else. Why? Because if they did understand it then “at any time” they might be converted and “their sins” would be forgiven.

Please, do go back and read over that paragraph again, because it’s very important that you fully understand the significance of this. According to orthodox Christian theology, Jesus’ entire purpose was to save people from their sins, but here we find him saying that he didn’t want that to happen as a consequence of his preaching. Isn’t that contradictory? Doesn’t it contradict Jesus’ specially forgiving of people’s sins? Perhaps. Although just three verses long, this passage has important issues that need to be addressed.

First, Jesus is clear that those who hear him can be divided into two groups: those who see and hear without perceiving and understanding, and those who see and hear while also perceiving and understanding. Just about everyone falls into the former group while only a select few fall into the latter group — specifically, Jesus’ twelve apostles.

Similar tactics have been used in just about every “cult” that has ever been created: some people are told that they are special and are carriers of information not given to anyone else, thus leading them to believe that they are different and more important than others. This is hardly a means for conveying anything like “universal love” — it is instead a message of exclusion.

Keeping in mind that Mark was written well after the events described and after Jesus would have died, could these verses be an effort to establish a special level of authority for the apostles? That is possible. These verses would allow that an apostle could assert special insight into anything attributed to Jesus simply by virtue of his having spent time with him.

On the other hand, we also have to keep in mind that Mark was likely written long after the events described — probably forty years or so. It’s possible that the apostles weren’t even alive at this time anymore. If any were alive, it wouldn’t have been many, and it is unlikely that this passage would have been meant to benefit just a couple of elderly people

continued…
 
There is one group, aside from the apostles, for whom the above passage would have been important: Christians familiar with or who were once part of mystery religions. Whatever larger religious context it occurs in, a common feature of mystery religions is an emphasis on the presence of “mysteries” in religious teachings. These mysteries are contained in metaphors and parables which seem to be literal truths to the average believer and to most people who hear about them, but secret truths contained within these messages are gradually revealed to those who rise up within the ranks.

This is not to say that the author of Mark was necessarily a devotee of mystery religions, but it certainly could be used by such people to support their perspective on Christianity. Moreover, it should cause us to take another look at the nature of early Christianity. Why else would Jesus be portrayed as not wanting people to have their sins forgiven?

Perhaps one could argue that this was not supposed to occur until he died on the cross, but there is no evidence that this complex soteriology had yet been developed. This is especially true in light of the fact that Jesus had already forgiven the sins of people on at least one occasion (Mark 2:5) and John the Baptist had been doing it before Jesus even arrived on the scene (Mark 1:4).

Of course, maybe the Jesus being described at this point isn’t the Jesus of popular Christianity today. Most Christians regard Jesus as someone who came to save the entire world, but we haven’t seen such a Jesus yet. So far, the Jesus described by Mark has only been interested in healing a few of those who were sick and forgiving a few of those who were sinful. This is a Jesus who is only helping a few — those who, based upon the accounts so far, have the strongest faith. The rest are either ignored or distracted by metaphors designed to be obscure.

This is consistent with Jesus being an apocalyptic prophet focused on his own cultural and religious context. The apocalyptic worldview is highly deterministic because it envisions a final battle between good and evil in which evil will be defeated by God; this, however, requires the existence of great evil that must first persecute believers.

Apocalyptic ideologies not only require the presence of evil and persecution, but in fact require that they be willed far in advance by God. Just as God hardened the heart of Pharaoh in order to make a grander show when he finally released the Hebrews, perhaps he is hardening the hearts of those listening to Jesus in order to make a grander show when he is crucified and raised from the dead. God’s purpose and apocalypse won’t be accomplished if too many people believe; he must thus ensure that enough remain “blind” to the message to provide a basis for evil and opposition.
 
wikipedia

The first Mark relates is the Parable of the Sower, speaking of himself as a farmer and his seed as his word. Much of the seed comes to no account but “Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times.” (4:8) His disciples (students) don’t understand why he is teaching in parables or even what the meaning of the parables are. Mark flashes forward to later, after the crowds have left and Jesus tells them “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’” (4:11-12), with Jesus quoting Isaiah 6:9-10. Early Christians used this passage from Isaiah “…to explain the lack of a positive response to Jesus and his followers from their fellow Jews.” (Miller 21) He rebukes them for not understanding him, and explains his meaning, and that those who accept his word, i.e. his teaching are the ones who will produce the large “crop”.

here also-

rc.net/wcc/readings/mark4v1.htm
 
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