Jesus died in India

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BelFarfalla said:
He also tells us that Christians did not care about Mary for hundreds of years. That Christians did not even take care of her.
the Ahmadi took care of her in her old age.
This is the point of discussion of this thread… but people got off track.
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Hi
First my dear Christian friends I want to clarify that I never said what is mentioned in the above quotes or I have been misunderstood. I only maintain that under influence of Paul, the NTGospels were changed to give impression that Mary or the twelve disciples never mattered much; it was only Paul ( who is said to have seen a vision that had only anonymous witnesses) that was most important.
Later Christianity realized and respected Mary.
Ahmadis were not anywhere at that time as our founder PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 proclaimed as such when he was appointed on this high office by a Word from GodAllahYHWH and that was in the year 1889 when he announced this formally.
You might like to read relative page about Mary by accessing:
alislam.org/books/
Introduction to the Study of Holy Quran (English)
On the Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
I have with me the original in Urdu, this point is discussed on page 55 of this edition.
Thanks

One should search for truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
First my dear Christian friends I want to clarify that I never said what is mentioned in the above quotes or I have been misunderstood. I only maintain that under influence of Paul, the NTGospels were changed to give impression that Mary or the twelve disciples never mattered much; it was only Paul ( who is said to have seen a vision that had only anonymous witnesses) that was most important.
Later Christianity realized and respected Mary.
Ahmadis were not anywhere at that time as our founder PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908 proclaimed as such when he was appointed on this high office by a Word from GodAllahYHWH and that was in the year 1889 when he announced this formally.
You might like to read relative page about Mary by accessing:
alislam.org/books/
Introduction to the Study of Holy Quran (English)
On the Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
I have with me the original in Urdu, this point is discussed on page 55 of this edition.
Thanks

One should search for truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.
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You are so way off the ball here paarsurrey.

It seems, and this is no offence to you, that you don’t seem to understand English, or have much knowledge of history or how the world works, sorry but I can’t explain it properly.

The NT Gospels were never changed under the influence of St Paul, so that Mary and the 12 Apostles were seem to not matter.

It is just one of those things in life that when a major event or major character in history is actually alive, (apart from the obvious like Jesus), they aren’t glorified as much as after they die, and their legend lives on through tales.

For example, Elvis Presley makes more money now dead than when he was alive.

The Gospels probably don’t seem to “carry on”, “embellish”, whatever descriptive word is suitable, as much as what we feel they should, only because the Gospel writers were writing about the Word of God, not the legend of the people around Him at the time.

However, we do know how important Mary and the Apostles played in the role of Christianity, and now we do acknowledge this further.

I hope that made sense to you paarsurrey, and to all.
 
I’d like to correct my statement above. Jesus supposedly went to Yayoi Period Japan; the Jomon ended 400 B.C.

Now, how did Paul make himself popular? Did he bribe Luke or the other Evangelists or something? Did he ghostwrite the Gospels and Acts?
 
GodsTyranny said:
Why does it matter? Why can’t you let people have their own beliefs?
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You have four fingers pointing back at you. It is clear that the OP believes that they must correct falsehood, that is part of their belief system and yet you are denying that person that part of their belief system.

Why is that?
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Please don’t be so harsh to Tyranny, let him be a free soul. It is a good thing in my Christians friends that they don’t hate a person, rather they love him, they only hate the beliefs of a person, with reasons, rationality and logical arguments . Please be a good Christian and wellcome him/her here, if possible.
Thanks

One should find truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.
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I wasn’t being harsh to Tyranny, but merely clarifying the basis of the OP and subsequent discussion.

Insofar as this post, I find the last sentence logically circular. It is tantamount to saying; If A = B, then B != A. Or to paraphrase what I believe you stated: “The NT Scripture is truth, but just in case, I reserve the right to hold it false.”
 
We have the shroud of Turin which still baffles scientists today. What’s your proof that Jesus went to India? What’s the difference between your belief and that of the Mormons, who believe Jesus went to America?
 
Anyone who knows anything about the Romans knows that they didn’t attempt to execute anyone. Crucifixation was reserved for revolutionaries, basically people who upset the calm in the empire. That was the biggest mistake anyone could make. The Romans didn’t tolerate troublemakers. If someone was crucified by the Romans, that person died. They made sure of it. They didn’t conquer the known world by being nice guys, and nothing roused their ire like troublemakers. This is why I find the claim that Jesus survived crucifixation as rather amusing.
 
Hi
Further to my post # 21 on this thread.
I have to submit as mentioned by me in the above referred post that **Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 **was appointed on the office of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi by a Word from GodAllahYHWH and that was in the year 1889 when he announced this formally.
Before this he believed as the traditional Muslims believe, you must be knowing about that, that Jesus did not die on cross but God raised him to sky, and God would send him again as prophesized by Muhammad; that was not correct and was mostly misunderstood.
So, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was chosen by GodAllahYHWH as IssaMasihImamMahdiIbneMaryam of the Muslims as per the prophecy of Muhammad, and as foretold and promised even earlier in the revealed scriptures, of **Second Coming of JesusYeshuaMessiahChrist **as per the Christians and Moshiach of the Jews (a second chance for Jews as they had not accepted the truthful JesusIssa, and none has yet come for them).
In short GodAllahYHWH told him this in so many words; here I translate just one passage from him for information of the members, in case of any ambiguity the original text in Urdu should be referred and preferred: Quote
“He (i.e., GodAllahYHWH) has told me in His clear Word that JesusIssaMasihIbneMaryam, Messenger of Allah had died naturally and you (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) have been sent as was promised in his place, thus has the promise been fulfilled. You are with Me and you are on clear truth; you are correct and rightly supporting the truth.” (Izala Ouham ‘Refutation of the imaginary concepts’ pages 561-562) Unquote
Thanks

So, the first and primary source on **Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally **is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Further to my post # 21 on this thread.
I have to submit as mentioned by me in the above referred post that **Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 **was appointed on the office of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi by a Word from GodAllahYHWH and that was in the year 1889 when he announced this formally.
Before this he believed as the traditional Muslims believe, you must be knowing about that, that Jesus did not die on cross but God raised him to sky, and God would send him again as prophesized by Muhammad; that was not correct and was mostly misunderstood.
So, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was chosen by GodAllahYHWH as IssaMasihImamMahdiIbneMaryam of the Muslims as per the prophecy of Muhammad, and as foretold and promised even earlier in the revealed scriptures, of **Second Coming of JesusYeshuaMessiahChrist **as per the Christians and Moshiach of the Jews (a second chance for Jews as they had not accepted the truthful JesusIssa, and none has yet come for them).
In short GodAllahYHWH told him this in so many words; here I translate just one passage from him for information of the members, in case of any ambiguity the original text in Urdu should be referred and preferred: Quote
“He (i.e., GodAllahYHWH) has told me in His clear Word that JesusIssaMasihIbneMaryam, Messenger of Allah had died naturally and you (i.e., Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) have been sent as was promised in his place, thus has the promise been fulfilled. You are with Me and you are on clear truth; you are correct and rightly supporting the truth.” (Izala Ouham ‘Refutation of the imaginary concepts’ pages 561-562) Unquote
Thanks

So, the first and primary source on **Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally **is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.
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Why do you believe this though paarsurrey?

Why do you believe a man, who in 1889, comes out and says he is a prophet, and that he has been told by God that Jesus died in India?
 
kellie said:
Why do you believe this though paarsurrey?
Why do you believe a man, who in 1889, comes out and says he is a prophet, and that he has been told by God that Jesus died in India?
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Hi
From Adam to Muhammad, this has been the case. GodAllahYHWH has not to take permission from anybody for talking to His ProphetsMessengers and the ChosenOnes. GodAllahYHWH always talks One-to-One with His ProphetsMessengers and they tell other human beings that God has chosen them and He had conversation with them, there is no change in God so there is no change in the procedure. So there is no surprise if GodAllahYHWH has made Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi of the era; this is also confirmed by the fact that none has come from the sky; so God’s witnessing is sufficient. I think it is reasonable and not unusual.
So JesusYeshuaIssa did not die on Cross, he died a natural death in Sirinagar, Kashmir,India.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
From Adam to Muhammad, this has been the case. GodAllahYHWH has not to take permission from anybody for talking to His ProphetsMessengers and the ChosenOnes. GodAllahYHWH always talks One-to-One with His ProphetsMessengers and they tell other human beings that God has chosen them and He had conversation with them, there is no change in God so there is no change in the procedure. So there is no surprise if GodAllahYHWH has made Mirza Ghulam Ahmad the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi of the era; this is also confirmed by the fact that none has come from the sky; so God’s witnessing is sufficient. I think it is reasonable and not unusual.
So JesusYeshuaIssa did not die on Cross, he died a natural death in Sirinagar, Kashmir,India.
Thanks
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So if I tell you that I have received a message from God that I am to be His prophet here in Australia, you will believe me?
 
kellie said:
So if I tell you that I have received a message from God that I am to be His prophet here in Australia, you will believe me?
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Hi
Though there is nothing available with my Christian friends that has been authored by JesusYeshua himself or by GodAllahYHWH and given to Jesus unlike Moses who got they say something wirtten in the tablets he received from GodAllahYHWH. When Jesus left from Galilee in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, perhaps he was angry with his disciples who deserted him on Cross, he did not leave anything authenticated by him. We could only know a very hazy account of his life from the NTGospels, please don’t mind. It is mentioned there that Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews. So to know some more clear account of Jesus’ life, I find it a common ground to present the account of Jonah in my discusssions here. Suppose, if you had been in Ninevah when Jonah presented himself before his people that Jonah was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. If you would have accepted him; on what criteria? If you would have not accepted him,most probably you might have not accepted him; on what criteria?
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise or He has delegated His powers to them.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Though there is nothing available with my Christian friends that has been authored by JesusYeshua himself or by GodAllahYHWH and given to Jesus unlike Moses who got they say something wirtten in the tablets he received from GodAllahYHWH. When Jesus left from Galilee in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, perhaps he was angry with his disciples who deserted him on Cross, he did not leave anything authenticated by him. We could only know a very hazy account of his life from the NTGospels, please don’t mind. It is mentioned there that Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews. So to know some more clear account of Jesus’ life, I find it a common ground to present the account of Jonah in my discusssions here. Suppose, if you had been in Ninevah when Jonah presented himself before his people that Jonah was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. If you would have accepted him; on what criteria? If you would have not accepted him,most probably you might have not accepted him; on what criteria?
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible having a prophecy, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise or He has delegated His powers to them.
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It seems that the problem with you and your religion is that you have to destroy Christianity. YOu have no desire to build bridges. Instead you keep telling one lie after another about us. It is truely getting tiresome.
 
Hi! my Christian friends.
So, the first and primary source on Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.

Further to my post # 29 on this thread.
I have to submit that PromisedMessiahImamMahdi has written a compact book of only 107 pages titled Jesus in India. I give hereunder first few lines from the introduction of the book written by the author himself ( original book is in Urdu, and was written in 1899 , now translated in English) :

INTRODUCTION
I have written this book, so that, by adducing proofs from established facts, from conclusive historical evidence of proved value and from ancient documents of non-Muslims, I might remove the serious misconceptions which are current among Muslims and among most Christian sects regarding the earlier and the later life of Jesus (on whom be peace) - misconceptions, the dangerous implications of which have not only injured and destroyed the conception of Divine Unity, but the unwholesome and poisonous influence of which has for long been noticed in the morals of the Muslims of this country. Spiritual maladies, i.e., want of good morals, evil thoughts, callousness, want of sympathy, are spreading among most Islamic sects, being the result of beliefs in unfounded stories and anecdotes of this kind. Human sympathy, pity and love of justice, humility and humble-mindedness - all good qualities - are disappearing day by day, as if they will soon bid a last farewell to this community. This callousness and this immorality make many a Muslim appear no better than the beasts of the jungle. Unquote
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi! my Christian friends.
So, the first and primary source on Jesus did not die on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi.

Further to my post # 29 on this thread.
I have to submit that PromisedMessiahImamMahdi has written a compact book of only 107 pages titled Jesus in India.
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What if “prophet Kellie” would tell you another thing. Would you believe her? I’m sure she could even write you a nice book if you ask nicely 🙂
kellie said:
So if I tell you that I have received a message from God that I am to be His prophet here in Australia, you will believe me?
Click to expand...
 
I have heard this story a long time now, since I was back in (yes…) Catholic school though I have never been a Christian, and it always seemed to me to be both a conflation of Christian scripture and the legends of Mani, since there are such parallels, and the sincere and charitable wish that Jesus had not been done to death, since he was such an obvious champion of all that is good in humanity.

No, I do not think that Yeshua survived his ordeal, but so much is lost in time, and the mind of legend. And this legend seems to be a kindly, hopeful one, no matter how strange or heretical it may seem to one coming from a Catholic (I include Protestant here, since for so long, the church was in general one, in western Europe, and most posters here are from that spiritual lineage) tradition.

So many things were happening worldwide then, something in the air. History is funny; sometimes it is just TIME for ideas to happen, like settling into cities, or spiritual movements, or calculus, or steam/electrical engines. And history can get extremely strange, when distributed among various peoples, languages, and situations. It seems exceedingly unlikely that Jesus died anywhere except Golgotha, though perhaps he was influenced a bit by Indian teachers, as well as Essene and so forth, during his young adulthood. As I said, there was something in the air, and considering the location…well. Even so, he was a great original. 🙂

Also thank you paarsurrey, for your generosity to us unbelievers. And thanks to those of you Catholics who are charitable to our difference.
 
Nepenthe said:
I have…
the sincere and charitable wish that Jesus had not been done to death, since he was such an obvious champion of all that is good in humanity.
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Hi
I am pleased to agree with your wish.
Thanks

One should search for truth in the NTBible, but one should not compromise on truth, if it is not found there.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
Though there is nothing available with my Christian friends that has been authored by JesusYeshua himself or by GodAllahYHWH and given to Jesus unlike Moses who got they say something wirtten in the tablets he received from GodAllahYHWH. When Jesus left from Galilee in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, perhaps he was angry with his disciples who deserted him on Cross, he did not leave anything authenticated by him. We could only know a very hazy account of his life from the NTGospels, please don’t mind. It is mentioned there that Jesus promised to show Sign of Jonah to the Jews. So to know some more clear account of Jesus’ life, I find it a common ground to present the account of Jonah in my discusssions here. Suppose, if you had been in Ninevah when Jonah presented himself before his people that Jonah was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. If you would have accepted him; on what criteria? If you would have not accepted him,most probably you might have not accepted him; on what criteria?
Thanks

The problem here with some of my Christian friends is that they don’t let God speak for himself. If they would have done it they would find a straight passage from the OTBible on every important issue, if Bible is a living book that answers every rational question. When they don’t get support from the Bible, they think they are wiser than God, so they try putting words into God’s mouth first for the Claim and then for the Reason which is usually not found there. One is left wondering if the Christian God is living and All-Wise or He has delegated His powers to them.
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For starters you dodged my question.

Secondly, you fail to know Christianity very well do you?

Moses received God’s Commandments on stone tablets

Jesus never had to have leave anything written down given to Him by God, as He IS God, Jesus IS the Word

Jesus IS the writings of God, but not in book form, but human form

Why do you insist on saying Jesus never left written words?

So tell me in your own words why you believe this man in India who in 1899 came out and said he was a prophet?
 
Steve_M said:
Anyone who knows anything about the Romans knows that they didn’t attempt to execute anyone.
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Yes, they didn’t attempt, they did. It fell into the category, like in modern totalitarian governments, of “crimes against the state.”
Crucifixation was reserved for revolutionaries, basically people who upset the calm in the empire. That was the biggest mistake anyone could make. The Romans didn’t tolerate troublemakers. If someone was crucified by the Romans, that person died. They made sure of it. They didn’t conquer the known world by being nice guys, and nothing roused their ire like troublemakers.
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Exactly. Crucifixion was the penultimate capital punishment under Roman law: “See what painful end awaits you if you upset the applecart?” It not only got rid of the dissident, it also sent a huge message and provided deterence against others doing the same.
This is why I find the claim that Jesus survived crucifixation as rather amusing.
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From Scripture, we know Christ did not survive the crucifixion in a mortal sense. If we take as gospel (forgive the pun, I couldn’t resist) the accounts of the crucifixtion of Christ, then we know he ascended to heaven and returned in the flesh. Further, after the purpose of his return was fulfilled, he went again to the Father.

As another post points out, there seems reason for other cultures to adopt their own territorial bounds as Christ’s corporeal resting place. None of them are supported historically by separate lines of evidence other than their own assertions. Secondly, there is no theologic basis: none of those cultures in c. 20-30 AD (or even prior), were of the Jewish monotheistic faith.

As Christ was the fulfillment of Judaic prophesy, there is no reason for Christ to have gone on to Japan, India or the Americas. In many cases, groups try – falsely – to ascribe the event to one of the so-called “lost tribes of Israel.” Here secular science fails them, for there is no historically-valid nor archeological evidence to support the contentions.
 
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