"Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him"

[marymary1975]

If Jesus didn’t.want.people.to have a religion then why did he said to.people.that he would build.his church on this (reference to Peter) rock. To my knowledge.Jesus doesn’t contradict his own self.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

we catholics do not have a religion with Jesus. we are members of His Church. in this light, we can substitute the word flock for the word Church. we might do this to better explore the metaphor of the Good Shepherd.

the RCC is not a religion. it is a Church. that is, an institution established by Jesus Christ for the salvation of souls. religions are not typically identified as institutions.

Christianity might be called a religion, I guess; but Christianity is not the same as the RCC.

earlier someone mentioned that being a member of the RCC does not preclude a person from having a personal relationship with Jesus. that is a good explanation for your mother. you might also mention to her the fact that being a member of the RCC enables a person to have the maximum support possible in having and growing a relationship with Jesus.

the maximum support concept can be backed up by mentioning the sacraments that Jesus designed to give us grace. it is grace that grows our personal relationship with Jesus.

Well said.

 

[GaryM]

I went down the same road with my Mom (and all 7 of my siblings ) Since it was back in the 70’s, I was not that good of a Catholic myself then. I’m sorry to say I let many of those opportunities for dialog slip away because I didn’t have any answers either (at least not very helpful ones.) I’m the oldest sibling though. My mom died over 20 yrs. ago, but all of my siblings followed her into Evangelical non-denominationalism. Their children are already grown up, none baptized, and few adhering to their Evangelical upbringing.

It’s a very sad situation. If I had it to do over again, I would do what you are already doing. Being kind and loving, but armed with all of the easy arguments against their simplistic understanding. CAF, and many books they recommend would be VERY helpful to you. Learn all you can about why they are on the very fringes of Christianity (if they are even Christian.) Learn about the Biblical foundation of the Catholic Church, and how they are being led (unknowingly) by the false traditions of men.

Wow, we do have similar situations. I too had my days of “not-being-a-good” Catholic and continue to grow in my faith and now filled with the Holy Spirit, love of our faith. I can thank in part my Evangelical mother. Now armed with study bibles, study guides and books on apologetics, attending conferences, etc., I feel “somewhat” able to defend the faith lovingly with my family when questioned. I agree knowledge of church history and bible history really helps.

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus was religious.

He was circumcised on the eighth day, went to all the religious festivals, went to the synagogue “as was his custom,” celebrated the Passover and commanded his disciples to be obedient to the temple authorities.

Peter, Paul and the other Apostles and disciples went to the temple at the hour of prayer and prayed the liturgical Jewish daily and nightly prayers.

Paul took a Nazarite vow and offered sacrifice in the temple after his conversion.

Paul writes about the qualifications for Bishops and deacon three times.

Its all in the Bible.

-Tim-

 

[epostle]

“Religion” has a different meaning for an evangelical than it does in the dictionary. The meaning started to change when various Protestant offshoots competed for memberships, drawing people away from mainstream churches. It became a dirty word.

 

[Ron_Conte]

The Catholic religion is the only way to have a real relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ. All people who are not in the Catholic Church are not related to Jesus Christ, except potentially, e.g. Protestants are potentially in a relationship with Jesus Christ, but not actually.

This is so because the Holy Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, as St. Paul teaches, the Communion of Saints. If you are outside this Communion then, as the Fathers teach, you are not in the Body of Christ. If you do not receive the Body & Blood of Our Lord at Mass, then you cannot have life in you, just as Christ says:

Jesus Christ said to his Apostles:

The Pope and the bishops united to him are the descendents of the apostles. If you do not hear the Pope and the bishops united to him, then you do not hear Christ. If you despise the Pope and the bishops united to him by refusing to be in union with said Pope & bishops, then you despise Jesus Christ.

Your position is contrary to the teachings of the Magisterium on salvation. It is the heresy of Feeneyism to deny that persons who are not formal members of the Church by baptism with water can still be saved by a baptism of desire or blood. It is worse than Feeneyism to claim that even baptized Protestants cannot be saved unless they become Catholic. The Council of Trent infallibly taught that a baptism of desire is sufficient for salvation, and that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation at least in desire. So a non-Catholic can have an implicit desire for the Eucharist, thereby fulfilling the saying of Jesus on the necessity of reception of His body and blood.

Several Popes have also taught that persons formally outside the Church can still be saved by invincible ignorance. I will post some relevant quotes next.

 

[Ron_Conte]

Pope Pius IX: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.” [Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, n. 7]

Pope John Paul II: “The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all.” [Redemptoris Missio 10]

Catechism of the Catholic Church: “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience – those too may achieve eternal salvation.” [CCC 847]

Pope Pius XII: “An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism.” [Address to Midwives 21a]

Pope John Paul II: “For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that ‘God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel’ to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7). Certainly, the condition ‘inculpably ignorant’ cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, ‘Grace works in an unseen way… The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery’ (GS 22).” [All Salvation Comes through Christ, General Audience – May 31, 1995]

Pope John Paul II: “For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ’s redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded.” [Ibid.]

 

[fhansen]

How do I/we as Catholics respond to this statement if at all “Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him.” My Mom heard this on Christian TV this morning and thought she would “share” it with me tonight. It rubs me the wrong way like it’s taking a shot at the Catholic faith.,I haven’t replied to her email yet. I love my mother but we don’t agree all the time on all aspects of our faith. She’s a very “Born Again” Evangelical if you know what I mean. She likes to share her faith with me often and when it goes against the Catholic faith I try to respond in a loving manner, but at times it gets hard… Please pray for me. But back to the topic at hand, how do I respond or should I just let it go? Just some background about Mom. Born Catholic, raised Catholic, married my Dad (Luthern turned Catholic), raised 5 kids as Catholics. Divorced, became “Evangelical” in the 70s (the first time) because she wasn’t “being fed” and left Catholic Church. Became Catholic again to receive an annulment to get married a second time to a Catholic gentleman in the Catholic church. Her and husband then left the Catholic faith again to become Evangelicals once again? I’m the youngest sibling and the only remaining Catholic in my family and so defending the faith is very challenging with her, especially since she was Catholic and is now so Evangelical. I really need some advice and help dealing with my Mom. Thanks.

The whole purpose of the Church and the faith she professes and teaches is to help get us into right relationship with God by helping get us into right relationship with His Son, through Whom we come to the Father-and then to help maintain that relationship throughout our lives. That ministry is her commission from God. The relationship, itself, is ours, between us and Him.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Jesus was religious.

He was circumcised on the eighth day, went to all the religious festivals, went to the synagogue “as was his custom,” celebrated the Passover and commanded his disciples to be obedient to the temple authorities.

Peter, Paul and the other Apostles and disciples went to the temple at the hour of prayer and prayed the liturgical Jewish daily and nightly prayers.

Paul took a Nazarite vow and offered sacrifice in the temple after his conversion.

Paul writes about the qualifications for Bishops and deacon three times.

Its all in the Bible.

-Tim-

Love this explanation. ^^ Wasn’t he also found in the Temple at 9 or 10yo when his parents thought he was lost and he replied “Do not be concerned I am in my Father’s house”?

Gonna use it if that’s okay.

 

[mattp0625]

In addition, ask about the origins of doctrines such as sola scriptura, sola fide, once saved always saved, altar call, invisible church, etc. She will find they are quite new developments. They are all aimed at the same thing, denying the need for the (Catholic) church.

 

[fisherman_carl]

It’s probably the Franciscan in me, but I would say that the incarnation would have happened whether man sinned or not,

Whoah! That’s interesting! What makes you say that?

 

[fred_conty]

How do I/we as Catholics respond to this statement if at all “Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him.” My Mom heard this on Christian TV this morning and thought she would “share” it with me tonight. It rubs me the wrong way like it’s taking a shot at the Catholic faith.,I haven’t replied to her email yet. I love my mother but we don’t agree all the time on all aspects of our faith. She’s a very “Born Again” Evangelical if you know what I mean. She likes to share her faith with me often and when it goes against the Catholic faith I try to respond in a loving manner, but at times it gets hard… Please pray for me. But back to the topic at hand, how do I respond or should I just let it go? Just some background about Mom. Born Catholic, raised Catholic, married my Dad (Luthern turned Catholic), raised 5 kids as Catholics. Divorced, became “Evangelical” in the 70s (the first time) because she wasn’t “being fed” and left Catholic Church. Became Catholic again to receive an annulment to get married a second time to a Catholic gentleman in the Catholic church. Her and husband then left the Catholic faith again to become Evangelicals once again? I’m the youngest sibling and the only remaining Catholic in my family and so defending the faith is very challenging with her, especially since she was Catholic and is now so Evangelical. I really need some advice and help dealing with my Mom. Thanks.

Why must it be one or the other? Jesus established a church, a religion, to help us in our relationship. Remember it is the one with the good news brought to us so we might have love for God. It is the one who teaches us and guides us to Christ, without which we would not have a relationship.

Where would we be without the bible…a religious church’s hand-me-down.

 

[TimothyH]

Love this explanation. ^^ Wasn’t he also found in the Temple at 9 or 10yo when his parents thought he was lost and he replied “Do not be concerned I am in my Father’s house”?

Gonna use it if that’s okay.

Yes, his parents took him to Jerusalem when he was 12, to participate in whatever Jewish religious festival was taking place. Probably passover.

 

[TimothyH]

Whoah! That’s interesting! What makes you say that?

Many theologians think that God would have become man to show us his glory.

-Tim-

 

[James82]

How do I/we as Catholics respond to this statement if at all “Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him.” My Mom heard this on Christian TV this morning and thought she would “share” it with me tonight. It rubs me the wrong way like it’s taking a shot at the Catholic faith.,I haven’t replied to her email yet. I love my mother but we don’t agree all the time on all aspects of our faith. She’s a very “Born Again” Evangelical if you know what I mean. She likes to share her faith with me often and when it goes against the Catholic faith I try to respond in a loving manner, but at times it gets hard… Please pray for me. But back to the topic at hand, how do I respond or should I just let it go? Just some background about Mom. Born Catholic, raised Catholic, married my Dad (Luthern turned Catholic), raised 5 kids as Catholics. Divorced, became “Evangelical” in the 70s (the first time) because she wasn’t “being fed” and left Catholic Church. Became Catholic again to receive an annulment to get married a second time to a Catholic gentleman in the Catholic church. Her and husband then left the Catholic faith again to become Evangelicals once again? I’m the youngest sibling and the only remaining Catholic in my family and so defending the faith is very challenging with her, especially since she was Catholic and is now so Evangelical. I really need some advice and help dealing with my Mom. Thanks.

Just politely point her to Matthew 16:18 Most Protestants that I talk with don’t deny that Christ instituted a Church, but they DO attempt to call it the ‘Christian Church’ which, in their minds, is an entirely amorphous concept.

 

[guanophore]

How do I/we as Catholics respond to this statement if at all “Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him.” My Mom heard this on Christian TV this morning and thought she would “share” it with me tonight. It rubs me the wrong way like it’s taking a shot at the Catholic faith.

This is creating a false dichotomy. There is no conflict between religion, and having a relationship with Jesus. If God was so against religion, why did He give the Jews the Law of Moses?

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Keeping oneself unspotted by the world is a full time job!

 

[GaryM]

This is creating a false dichotomy. There is no conflict between religion, and having a relationship with Jesus. If God was so against religion, why did He give the Jews the Law of Moses?

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Keeping oneself unspotted by the world is a full time job!

Very good point and thanks for the Scripture reference.

 

[PRmerger]

How do I/we as Catholics respond to this statement if at all “Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a religion with Him.”

It’s a nonsensical statement. Since “religion” comes from the Latin word religiare, which means, esentially, “relationship”, the statement being posed is this: Jesus died on the cross for us to have a relationship with Him, not a relationship with Him.

Or, it could be stated: Jesus died on the cross for us to have a religion with Him, not a religion with Him.

#nonsense

 

[PRmerger]

I really need some advice and help dealing with my Mom. Thanks.

You should tell your family that it’s impossible to have a relationship with Christ without religion.

One needs to know what God revealed, right, in order to have a relationship with Him, right?

So how does one know what God revealed? By one way: through religion. Through the Catholic religion to be specific.

For there is no other way to know what God revealed except for what the CC preserved as the Word of God, transmitted from Christ via His Apostles, to His Body, the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic religion is the only way to have a real relationship with Our Lord Jesus Christ. All people who are not in the Catholic Church are not related to Jesus Christ, except potentially, e.g. Protestants are potentially in a relationship with Jesus Christ, but not actually.

Welcome to CAF, Jack. No doubt you will learn a lot about your faith here as most of us do.

Your statement above contradicts the teaching of the Catholic Church.

This is so because the Holy Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, as St. Paul teaches, the Communion of Saints. If you are outside this Communion then, as the Fathers teach, you are not in the Body of Christ.

You are right that the Church is the Body of Christ, and that all who are in Christ are part of his mystical body.

If you do not receive the Body & Blood of Our Lord at Mass, then you cannot have life in you, just as Christ says:

He spoke these words to his disciples. There are many followers of Christ that do not recognize Him in the breaking of the bread.

The Pope and the bishops united to him are the descendents of the apostles.

They are more accurately called successors, because descendants implies a biological relationship, when it is spiritual.

If you do not hear the Pope and the bishops united to him, then you do not hear Christ. If you despise the Pope and the bishops united to him by refusing to be in union with said Pope & bishops, then you despise Jesus Christ.

It is for those who know better. Many of our separated brethren don’t know any better.