Jesus distinct from God

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Hi TomaszA!

A situation in which there are contradictory verses passages in the NTBible; what should one do?

My argument is that since the gospels were written, as I understand from Catholic Encyclopedia, by anonymous writers. These were ascribed to disciple for convenience only. These were also influenced by the deviant Paul; and adopted by the Catholic Church only in following Paul. Jesus neither wrote them nor authenticated the gospels literally. The contradictions in NTBible have therefore arisen only due to the theological differences of Paul with Jesus, in my opinion.

Also kindly refer to my post #14 in this thread:
His (Jesus’) duty was only to confirm the OTBible and to enforce its teachings. So logically anything mentioned in the NTBible must be in principle truly deducible from OTBible in unequivocal and straight forward terms. The words/texts/meanings (in NTBible) which do not conform to the usage in the OTBible should therefore be not paid, in my opinion; any worthwhile attention. This would be against Jesus’ mission set for him by GodAllahParmesherYHWH.
I think I have reasonably cleared my viewpoint; why the quotes/meanings given by me present the truthful Jesus’ standpoint and not Paul’s standpoint.

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks
 
A Revealed Scripture or a Revealed Book is for the guidance of the human beings- the most intelligent creature around the globe. Unlike other animals, humans like reasoning and freedom of will. So, in my opinion, a revealed book must have among others two essential qualities in it:
  1. The pristine **original text **in the original living language – a straightforward and matter of fact claim for guidance on an issue/problem.
  2. Reason content- a clue/essence of the argument.
If these are not there, the clever persons would misguide the people from the right meaning/interpretation and make the scripture corrupted and subject to their own whims; as if they are more wise than GodAllahParmesherYHWH- the All-Wise.

My understanding is that NTBible does not have both. If we give a relaxation on one, the other one won’t be there. Our CatholicsProtestantsJWs friends are, therefore, always finding ways to make their ChristianGod wise; as if the ChristianGod lacked/erred or forgot to do/say something which they are providing him now.

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks
 
Hi TomaszA!
Peace Paarsurrey,
A situation in which there are contradictory verses passages in the NTBible; what should one do?
I don’t believe there are real contradictions in the Bible. Sometimes I may run into something that appears to be a contradiction, but by faith I know the difficulty is in my own ability to comprehend, and not the text itself. I also know by faith that there is a reasonable explanation.
My argument is that since the gospels were written, as I understand from Catholic Encyclopedia, by anonymous writers. These were ascribed to disciple for convenience only. These were also influenced by the deviant Paul; and adopted by the Catholic Church only in following Paul. Jesus neither wrote them nor authenticated the gospels literally. The contradictions in NTBible have therefore arisen only due to the theological differences of Paul with Jesus, in my opinion.
I’d have to question where you read that, I’d be surprised (and disappointed) if it was in fact a Catholic source, certainly doesn’t sound like anything from the Catholic Encyclopedia!

With regards to the authors of the Gospels, they are not anonymous, the same names have been attributed to the same Gospels since the beginning. We in fact have many external sources verifying who the authors were. An example includes St Papias, who personally knew St John the Apostle and was in contact with many of the disciples from other Apostles. He mentions the known history that Matthew wrote a gospel originally in Hebrew that was later translated to Greek. That Mark was a disciple of St Peter and after the two split Mark wrote down everything Peter revealed although it wasn’t necessarily in the exact order. I don’t quite recall if he mentioned anything about Luke and John, however these are mentioned in other early sources.

As for St Paul, I doubt a Catholic source would describe him as a “deviant.” There actually was a proposed theory a hundred or more years ago that in the early Church there was a rivalry between St Peter and St Paul, the former representing Jewish Christianity and the later Gentile Christianity. I presume this is where such statements come from. The theory was disproven when many early non-canonical writings were discovered showing not enmity, but teamwork between the Apostles! For example, the first epistle of St Clemenent to the Corinthians, written in 96 AD. St Clement was a first century Pope who actually lived in the time of Peter and Paul. His epistle doesn’t reveal any rivalry between the Apostles, which would be expected if St Paul was indeed a deviant, but instead mentions the Apostles together, working to bring Christianity to Rome. The fact is St Paul was accepted by all the Apostles and even preached with many of them (hard to comprehend if he was such a radical!)

This old and refuted theory is something Muslims still hold on to.
Also kindly refer to my post #14 in this thread:
It wasn’t a very clear post but the main point I gather is that the NT is unreliable.

It is true Jesus didn’t write any books of the NT Himself, but this doesn’t discredit the NT in anyway.

When considering accuracy/reliability we have to ask two questions. What is the incentive of the writer, do they have an incentive to write accurately? And did they have the opportunity to gather reliable information?

With regards to the first, we can say with certainty that their incentive was to write everything down accurately because the facts they were gathering pertained to their eternal salvation. It would make no sense to forge material or be lax about collecting information if their soul hangs on the line! St Paul declares plainly that if Jesus was not Crucified and if He did not Resurrect, we are without any hope and are to be the most pitied people on earth! Therefore the authors of the gospels must have written accurately because their intention would have been to preserve facts that pertain to salvation. St Ignatius (executed ~107 AD), Bishop of Antioch, was so confident in the facts pertaining to Jesus that he was more than willing to be fed to lions for his faith in Christ! I’m sorry, but liars, fakes, and those lacking faith are not willing to die for something not true!

With regards to opportunity, we see that the authors had more than enough opportunity to gather the facts about Jesus’ life. Most modern scholars date the Gospels to about 70 AD, but even if we attribute the later dating of 80-90 AD, they still had the opportunity to gather facts! The last Apostle to die was John around 98AD! Disciples of Jesus and His eye witnesses lived late into the first century! We have a report by Quadratus, an early apologist for Christianity, writing in 123 AD that in his time there were still people alive who were cured and resurrected by Jesus! We see therefore, that in the time the Gospels were composed, the authors had more than enough opportunity to gather information from Apostles and other eye witnesses.

Thus, we have no reason to doubt the historicity of the Gospels!

Hope this helps!

God bless,
Tomasz
 
  1. The pristine **original text **in the original living language – a straightforward and matter of fact claim for guidance on an issue/problem.
We don’t have the original for ANY ancient text.

As a Catholic however, I am confident that the Bible accurately reflects the original text. And yes, this confidence is based on evidence and reason, not blind faith.
 
the authors of the Gospels, they are not anonymous, the same names have been attributed to the same Gospels since the beginning. Tomasz
Hi

Kindly access the Catholic Encyclopedia here:
newadvent.org/cathen/index.html
enter ‘gospel’, hit search and see what it says below
“It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves”.
newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm

However, there is no reason to get disappointed. Truth is always refreshing.

Thanks
 
Kindly access the Catholic Encyclopedia here:
newadvent.org/cathen/index.html
enter ‘gospel’, hit search and see what it says below
“It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves”.
newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm
The Encyclopedia is saying the Gospels are anonymous in the sense that they don’t reveal who the author is in the text itself explicitly. However, we do know who wrote them because the same titles have been attributed to the same Gospels. We never find for example, an early document of Matthew’s Gospel being attributed to another Apostle. The same Gospel is always attributed to the same Apostle.

There is no reason to doubt that the titles and authors attributed to the works aren’t actually theirs.

If you do call into question the Gospels for this reason, you’d also have to call into question secular works! For example, the annals of history, authored by the first century Roman historian Tacitus, does not indicate that the author is Tacitus in the text itself! We know Tacitus wrote it the same way we know who authored the Gospels, through the title! And you know what’s interesting? There is NO scholar that will doubt Tacitus authored this work, so why is there a double standard when it comes to the gospels?

Also, you should keep in mind the online version of the Encyclopedia was written in 1917. Go back the entry on the Gospels and take a look at the sources, some of them are before the 1900s! In that time scholars still thought the Gospels were written after the first century. Modern scholarship has revealed new evidence that places the Gospels to around 70 AD, the latest dating being 80-90AD, well within the first century.

So although the Encyclopedia is useful for many things, when it comes to textual scholarship, it’s certainly outdated.

Hope this helps,

God bless,
Tomasz
 
Originally Posted by TomaszA
It is true Jesus didn’t write any books of the NT Himself
Originally Posted by TomaszA
What is the incentive of the writer (of a Gospel)?
Originally Posted by TomaszA
We don’t have the original for ANY ancient text.
Originally Posted by TomaszA
Modern scholarship has revealed new evidence that places the Gospels to around 70 AD, the latest dating being 80-90AD, well within the first century.
Parsurrey says:

When you don’t have the original text and perhaps even don’t know for certain in what language it was? The one you read is translation of the translation of the translation. One could guess the period of 80-90AD, is pretty long in this context.

I am not much concerned with the incentive of writers; as they were the people who were not trusted by their Master Jesus, in my opinion. He left them behind, when Jesus migrated towards India from Judea to save his life from the persecuting Jews. He spent most of his life there and died a natural and peaceful death there and is also buried there. These disciples fled away at the time of his tribulation. In his absence they might have called him, out of frustration, a God -which he was not; so what use is it?

They wrote unauthorized, whatever they liked, while their Master was alive in far-off lands. Jesus died, according to some tradition at the age of 120 years; while the incident of crucifixion took place as they say 23 to 33 years of age. They never went to get his consent or authorization to write.

The fact remains that NTBible does not have:
  1. The pristine original text in the original living language – a straightforward and matter of fact claim for guidance on an issue/problem.
  2. Reason content- a clue/essence of the argument.
You may be satisfied with the standard of accuracy of the NTBible as you say, and God bless you; but for me who is primarily interested only in the Words of GodAllahParmesherYHWH and what His appointed Messengers Prophets had told from their mouth; sorry, I am not.

I appreciate your explanation; but that is, in my opinion, being more wise than God, and putting in God’s mouth what he did not want us to have.

You are welcome to write in the newly started thread “NTBible does not have both”, if you like, and “History is not necessarily what the European people wrote” started by me for further search for truth.

Thanks

I love Jesus and Mary as I love Buddha and Krishna
 
When you don’t have the original text and perhaps even don’t know for certain in what language it was? The one you read is translation of the translation of the translation. One could guess the period of 80-90AD, is pretty long in this context.
Well if I’m not mistaken the scholarly consensus is that the NT was written in Greek. We have a record stating that Matthew originally wrote in Hebrew and then later this was translated into Greek. It’s possible and likely that Matthew himself authored this translation.

I see you’ve chosen the later date, 80-90 AD, on what basis I’m not sure. However you should be aware that St John was still alive in this time and certainly other eye witnesses and people who knew eye witnesses were alive.
I am not much concerned with the incentive of writers; as they were the people who were not trusted by their Master Jesus, in my opinion. He left them behind, when Jesus migrated towards India from Judea to save his life from the persecuting Jews.
Wow…

You actually believe such a story?

If so, did you put the story’s account under the same scrutiny you put the Gospels under?
according to some tradition at the age of 120 years;
What tradition is that?

Did you put it under the same level of scrutiny?
The fact remains that NTBible does not have:
  1. The pristine original text in the original living language – a straightforward and matter of fact claim for guidance on an issue/problem.
  2. Reason content- a clue/essence of the argument.
Do Buddhists have a “pristine original text”? How about Muslims? How about a pristine original text for any ancient secular document?

As for point number 2, I honestly don’t understand what you mean.
I appreciate your explanation; but that is, in my opinion, being more wise than God, and putting in God’s mouth what he did not want us to have.
With all due respect, your basis for rejecting the NT is a legend (I’m being charitable here!) that says Jesus migrated to India!
I love Jesus and Mary as I love Buddha and Krishna
Oh, and do we have the pristine originals for the Hindu texts?
 
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