Jesus: Divine or human PERSON?

[TerryOfromCA]

I am having a discussion with a friend and would like some (name removed by moderator)ut from others.

Regarding Jesus, he says this: "[His] Personality is Divine and solely Divine. This is why it says that He was found human in APPEARANCE in Phil 2:7.

I replied with this: “Oh no my friend, that is not correct. The person Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.”

My friend came back with this: " I asked a Priest about this and he confirmed what I have already received from the Catechism and the Bible … Jesus is a Divine Person with two Natures (Divine and Human). I am not referring to the 2 Natures but to the One Person that you also believe in. The Subject of all of Jesus’ actions is Divine. You yourself said that Jesus is One Person and all I am saying is that this Person(Subject) is Divine. Even Fr. Benedict Groeschel said once on Television that the Personality of Jesus is a Divine Personality.

I replied with this: “I just said that Jesus has two Natures: Divine and Human. I just said that. But to say that Jesus has a human nature but he is not a human person doesn’t make any sense. He is a person, and he has two Natures: Divine and Human.”

He again came back with this: “He is a DIVINE Person, and He has two Natures: Divine and Human”

Okay, I think you guys see how this conversation is going. Any (name removed by moderator)ut from the members here would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Sirach2]

Sounds to me you are both saying the same thing, only using different words.

I am having a discussion with a friend and would like some (name removed by moderator)ut from others.

Regarding Jesus, he says this: "[His] Personality is Divine and solely Divine. This is why it says that He was found human in APPEARANCE in Phil 2:7.

I replied with this: “Oh no my friend, that is not correct. The person Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.”

My friend came back with this: " I asked a Priest about this and he confirmed what I have already received from the Catechism and the Bible … Jesus is a Divine Person with two Natures (Divine and Human). I am not referring to the 2 Natures but to the One Person that you also believe in. The Subject of all of Jesus’ actions is Divine. You yourself said that Jesus is One Person and all I am saying is that this Person(Subject) is Divine. Even Fr. Benedict Groeschel said once on Television that the Personality of Jesus is a Divine Personality.

I replied with this: “I just said that Jesus has two Natures: Divine and Human. I just said that. But to say that Jesus has a human nature but he is not a human person doesn’t make any sense. He is a person, and he has two Natures: Divine and Human.”

He again came back with this: “He is a DIVINE Person, and He has two Natures: Divine and Human”

Okay, I think you guys see how this conversation is going. Any (name removed by moderator)ut from the members here would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[sanctabellator]

I would try to focus on the meaning of nature and person. I tbink your friend is presenting a red herring discussion point. To make the differentiation that he is from the definition of person and his nature is a false dichotomy. Also there are numerous biblical passages that point to Christ as a fully human person. 1 Jn. 1:4, Lk 2:52, he was born of a human mother, he experienced human emotions, lk 10:21, jn 11:15, 4:6 etc.
There are many other examples but I suspect your friend is atempting to say something new and inventive for its own sake rather than truths.
As I noted it is a red herring and may not have an answer.

God bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

The language the Fathers used does not assign a divinity or humanity to personhood, thus there is no “divine person”. The Holy Trinity has 3 persons but it is their nature that is divine. So if we are to use the language of the Fathers, your friend is mistaken. You are correct, Jesus is fully human and fully divine in his nature. In his person he is the Word of God and Jesus the Christ.

At least your friend is correct that there is only one person in Jesus Christ. Saying there are two persons is actually a heresy.

 

[Joe_5859]

Jesus is one person, not two people. And He is a divine person, not a human person. Yes, he is fully human and fully divine. His human and divine natures are united, but not confused, in the one divine person. In theological terms, it’s called the hypostatic union.

I would encourage reading through the section in the Catechism on Jesus, especially CCC 464-478. Many theologians and bishops over many centuries at many ecumencial councils already hashed out these things in great detail. No need for us to reinvent the wheel. In my own thinking about these things, I have always been amazed at how the questions I come up with have already usually been answered over 1500 years ago.

 

[Sirach2]

I still don’t see the difference. Here’s the CCC teaching.

480 Jesus Christ is true God and true man, in the unity of his divine person; for this reason he is the one and only mediator between God and men.

481 Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God’s Son.

482 Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

How does this not say the same thing as your friend is saying?

“Jesus is a Divine Person with two Natures (Divine and Human).”

 

[Shin]

Here is a sermon on the subject.

The terminology lesson starts at five minutes in. A “mini course in Christology.”

The sermon relates that the correct terminology when discussing the Trinity is divine person, and *not *human person.

We have to be very careful when speaking of the Trinity.

 

[Sirach2]

Here is a sermon on the subject.

The terminology lesson starts at five minutes in. A “mini course in Christology.”

The sermon relates that the correct terminology when discussing the Trinity is divine person, and *not *human person.

We have to be very careful when speaking of the Trinity.

Respectfully speaking, Shin, I am a few minutes into the tape. I don’t know who is speaking, nor whether to invest more time, since the speaker has said nothing yet about the two natures of Christ Jesus. Is anything on this tape going to say anthing different than what the Church teaches in the Catechism, quoted in my last post?

 

[Shin]

I said, ‘terminology lesson starts at five minutes’ so a person can click on the audio and forward to the start where the pertinent lessons begin.

There is a good deal of worthwhile information from father in the sermon.

 

[Sirach2]

I said, ‘terminology lesson starts at five minutes’ so a person can click on the audio and forward to the start where the pertinent lessons begin.

There is a good deal of worthwhile information from father in the sermon.

Oh, I missed that … I just went to the link instead. So, it is a priest. Thanks.

EDIT: I just played it again, and the topic doesn’t come up until about 40% into the tape, says the same thing in a couple of sentences as the Catechism, and then moves on to other things. For those who do not have the time, it is simply a nice homily with nothing else being said, other than a priest requoted the CCC.

 

[R_C]

From a recent Ask an Apologist question:

Is it Theologically correct to say that Jesus is NOT a human person?

In short, Fr. Grondin replied:

Jesus is a divine person with both a human and divine nature.

 

[JimG]

Jesus is one person, not two people. And He is a divine person, not a human person. Yes, he is fully human and fully divine. His human and divine natures are united, but not confused, in the one divine person. In theological terms, it’s called the hypostatic union.

I would encourage reading through the section in the Catechism on Jesus, especially CCC 464-478. Many theologians and bishops over many centuries at many ecumencial councils already hashed out these things in great detail. No need for us to reinvent the wheel. In my own thinking about these things, I have always been amazed at how the questions I come up with have already usually been answered over 1500 years ago.

Yes, exactly right. It is so easy to off on the wrong track when discussing either the Persons of the Trinity or the hypostatic union in Jesus, that one has to be very careful with the meaning of terms.

There are three Persons in the Trinity, all possessing the one divine nature.

One of the Persons–the Son–took on a human nature, while retaining his divine nature. Thus, he is one divine person with two natures.

One can say that Jesus is a human being but not a human person.

He is a human being because he has a human nature.
He is not a human person because he is only one person, and that is the Second Person of the Trinity–a divine Person.

 

[Joe_5859]

Yes, exactly right. It is so easy to off on the wrong track when discussing either the Persons of the Trinity or the hypostatic union in Jesus, that one has to be very careful with the meaning of terms.

There are three Persons in the Trinity, all possessing the one divine nature.

One of the Persons–the Son–took on a human nature, while retaining his divine nature. Thus, he is one divine person with two natures.

One can say that Jesus is a human being but not a human person.

He is a human being because he has a human nature.
He is not a human person because he is only one person, and that is the Second Person of the Trinity–a divine Person.

Yeah, for those of us who aren’t used to being precise with our terms, Christology can be an adjustment.

This is also why Catholics call Mary the “Mother of God.” Nestorius denied this title of Mary precisely because of his view of Jesus as a human person united to a divine person. Thus he would say that Mary was the mother of the human person of Jesus, but not the divine person. But since Jesus is not two people and since Mary gave birth to a person, not a nature, we can say that she is the Mother of God. The doctrine tells us much more about Jesus than it does about Mary.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The language the Fathers used does not assign a divinity or humanity to personhood, thus there is no “divine person”. The Holy Trinity has 3 persons but it is their nature that is divine. So if we are to use the language of the Fathers, your friend is mistaken. You are correct, Jesus is fully human and fully divine in his nature. In his person he is the Word of God and Jesus the Christ.

At least your friend is correct that there is only one person in Jesus Christ. Saying there are two persons is actually a heresy.

Actually that is not true. The hypostasis of the Word is a divine hypostasis, according to St. Maximus the Confessor. Hypostasis (often translated as person), in the language of the Fathers refers either to a nature with accompanying hypostatic characteristics, or to that in which other things subsist. In either sense, the hypostasis of the Word is properly divine. These christological teachings really need to come with some translations for modern English, as our concept of a person (which we tend to associate with a mind) no longer really fits the patristic concept of a person any longer.