Jesus existence

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Historicity said:
What do you use as your actual proof?
Legitimate historical evidence
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What counts as “Legitimate historical evidence”?
I am asking these clarifying questions because it appears that you simply setting us up for a wild goose chase.
 
davidv said:
What counts as “Legitimate historical evidence”?
I am asking these clarifying questions because it appears that you simply setting us up for a wild goose chase.
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I’m afraid you’re already on that wild goose chase.
Surely with so many that strongly believe in Jesus, they are at least some that have their proof of Jesus’ real existence.
 
Look at the book, “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Anything by Josh McDowell would be fine as well.

There are alot of books out there that deal with the real, historical Christ.
 
Rascalking said:
Look at the book, “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Anything by Josh McDowell would be fine as well.

There are alot of books out there that deal with the real, historical Christ.
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Will look into it, thank you.

“The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the “Mythos,” as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world’s crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the “sun of God’s” birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:
Code: 
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
For reasons like this I find it very unlikely an actual historical Jesus existed.
 
Historicity said:
Will look into it, thank you.

“The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the “Mythos,” as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world’s crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the “sun of God’s” birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:
Code: 
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
For reasons like this I find it very unlikely an actual historical Jesus existed.
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Glad that your asking questions. That shows (hopefully) that you have an open mind.

None of these questions-NONE OF THEM can be answered in an internet thread. You can use the internet to start-but you need to get down to a Borders, Barnes and Nobles or a library to actually check the stuff out.
 
Historicity said:
Will look into it, thank you.

“The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the “Mythos,” as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world’s crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the “sun of God’s” birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:
  • The sun “dies” for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
  • In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be “born of a Virgin.”
  • The sun is the “Light of the World.”
  • The sun “cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him.”
  • The sun rising in the morning is the “Savior of mankind.”
  • The sun wears a corona, “crown of thorns” or halo.
  • The sun “walks on water.”
  • The sun’s “followers,” “helpers” or “disciples” are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
  • The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the “Most High”; thus, “he” begins “his Father’s work” at “age” 12.
  • The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the “Sun of God” begins his ministry at “age” 30.
  • The sun is hung on a cross or “crucified,” which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
For reasons like this I find it very unlikely an actual historical Jesus existed.
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This proof that you would not accept anything offered. You have your mind made up. Right?
 
davidv said:
This proof that you would not accept anything offered. You have your mind made up. Right?
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Come on man. I don’t think that is fair. He (or she, sorry if your female) is asking honest questions.
 
Rascalking said:
Come on man. I don’t think that is fair. He (or she, sorry if your female) is asking honest questions.
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Thanks I appreciate it. And he lol.
And whoever said I need to get real books, etc. I have several books I’ve also been reading to find answers to these types of questions. I simply wanted to see if I was currently missing any main points.
 
Historicity said:
Thanks I appreciate it. And he lol.
And whoever said I need to get real books, etc. I have several books I’ve also been reading to find answers to these types of questions. I simply wanted to see if I was currently missing any main points.
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I think I said get some real books. Make sure they come from all sides, then make up your own mind. Don’t just read books that claim Jesus didn’t exist.

Obviously, being a Christian/Catholic, I’m of the opinion He was more than a myth! 😉
 
Rascalking said:
I think I said get some real books. Make sure they come from all sides, then make up your own mind. Don’t just read books that claim Jesus didn’t exist.

Obviously, being a Christian/Catholic, I’m of the opinion He was more than a myth! 😉
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There shouldn’t be a needed side when it comes to a supposed real man though. Credible sources should not be biased in the first place.
 
Historicity said:
There shouldn’t be a needed side when it comes to a supposed real man though. Credible sources should not be biased in the first place.
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Every writer has a bias, period. You can’t write a piece of non-fiction and not have the narrative voice slip in their bias. True, you can check it, you can diminish it, but it’s there.

Too often people looking for “truth” find only what they are seeking. If your conviced that Jesus didn’t exist, you’ll read into things that aren’t there, and you won’t look at the evidence that He did exist. Same with those who are convinced that Christianity is true without looking to see if it is.
 
Historicity said:
Will look into it, thank you.

“The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the “Mythos,” as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world’s crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the “sun of God’s” birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:
Code: 
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
For reasons like this I find it very unlikely an actual historical Jesus existed.
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How many other “godmen” exist that meet these criteria? It seems pretty obvious this list was inducted from the specifics of the New Testament into a vague archetype…of which Jesus seems to be the only example.

Moreover, most of these are a stretch. Jesus began his ministry at age 30 because of zodiac movements? Did Jewish culture embrace the Western zodiac at all?

Feel free to back this up with links to real sources.
 
Historicity, it appears from your material that you have watched and visited the Zeitgeist movie and / or web site. Some of the key material such as other pagan gods being crucified, all of them having 12 followers, and they all being born on Dec 25th are actually sourced not from historical evidence, but from 19th century writers.

Some content is true like all the stuff regarding Sun worship in the pagan religions. Unfortunately, Zeitgeist (and a few more like it) also apply false reasoning such as drawing a connection between The Sun God and the Son of God. Such a connection only works in English, but none of the ancient languages.

I would suggest you take a look at this web site:
conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/
 
His existence may be possible. It is not possible to prove sufficiently, yet it is a possibility.

But, which Jesus? What version?
 
Historicity said:
Will look into it, thank you.

“The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the “Mythos,” as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.

For instance, many of the world’s crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that “God’s sun” had “died” for three days and was “born again” on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the “sun of God’s” birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the “sun of God”:
Code: 
* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
For reasons like this I find it very unlikely an actual historical Jesus existed.
Click to expand...
Why should we accept this as legitimate historical research? You have provided no sources for this substantial quote that you have just given (at least it appears to be a quote). If this is a quote, and you are not citing your sources, then what you have told is us not academically reliable. If this were a research paper at a university, you would be guilty of academic dishonesty for failing to cite your sources. If this is just a series of claims that you have made, then you have failed to back them up sufficiently with falsifiable sources. If you’re going to hold those who acknowledge the historicity of Jesus to a standard, you should also hold yourself to it.

-ACEGC
 
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