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Trevor_Dewey
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When read in the original Douay-Rheims (from the Jerome Vulgate) translation, not the Challoner translation at least one part seem to be more about now or the future than AD 70. YMMV.
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Ph0enix
Guest
Jesus didn’t fail
It just ain’t the end times yet
It just ain’t the end times yet
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St_Redemption
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No, but He seems to be speaking of the people of the time when He was on Earth if you read them.
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Here_For_Donuts
Guest
This is an interesting topic.
From what I understand, John was the youngest of the Apostles and the only one to die of natural causes. He may have lived into the very early 2nd century. By the time he died, all of the New Testament was probably written. Three of his disciples’ writings, the letters of Ignatius, Polycarp and possibly Clement, have managed to survive and they seem unconcerned with this “problem” of seemingly unfulfilled prophecy. Ignatius quoted extensively from three of the four gospels in his letters, so we know he had access to the texts. Maybe we can speculate that John had taught him in the correct interpretation?
The earliest written gospel is Mark. According to scholarly consensus (according to Wikipedia), it was most likely written in the middle of the first century. (Interesting fact: a papyrus fragment of Mark dated to the year 80 was recently found in an Egyptian mummy mask.) So even if we assume an early date of 60, that’s almost three decades after Jesus’ time. If the author felt that Jesus’ statements weren’t credible, he wouldn’t have written them; he was writing in the time when said prophecy was supposed to occur, if interpreted in a certain way. So perhaps the author of Mark didn’t interpret the prophecies that way?
From what I understand, John was the youngest of the Apostles and the only one to die of natural causes. He may have lived into the very early 2nd century. By the time he died, all of the New Testament was probably written. Three of his disciples’ writings, the letters of Ignatius, Polycarp and possibly Clement, have managed to survive and they seem unconcerned with this “problem” of seemingly unfulfilled prophecy. Ignatius quoted extensively from three of the four gospels in his letters, so we know he had access to the texts. Maybe we can speculate that John had taught him in the correct interpretation?
The earliest written gospel is Mark. According to scholarly consensus (according to Wikipedia), it was most likely written in the middle of the first century. (Interesting fact: a papyrus fragment of Mark dated to the year 80 was recently found in an Egyptian mummy mask.) So even if we assume an early date of 60, that’s almost three decades after Jesus’ time. If the author felt that Jesus’ statements weren’t credible, he wouldn’t have written them; he was writing in the time when said prophecy was supposed to occur, if interpreted in a certain way. So perhaps the author of Mark didn’t interpret the prophecies that way?
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St_Redemption
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Here is a debate between a Muslim scholar and Dr James White, Protestant apologist. Here the Muslim scholar, Shabir Ally, uses this as, perhaps, his main argument. You see him pulling it out almost immediately when it is his turn to speak.
youtube.com/watch?v=RnrH-tp5BWM
youtube.com/watch?v=RnrH-tp5BWM
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Sirach2
Guest
That’s so true, and we see this as He wept over what He knew would take place in Jerusalem soon:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate! Lk 13:34-35
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Wesrock
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To carry over a link I put in the other thread, I found Dr. Brant Pitre’s exegesis on Matthew 24 interesting for any who would like to listen.
stpaulcenter.com/studies/audio-lesson/the-destruction-of-the-temple-and-the-end-of-the-world-matthew-chapters-23
stpaulcenter.com/studies/audio-lesson/the-destruction-of-the-temple-and-the-end-of-the-world-matthew-chapters-23
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St_Redemption
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thanks for the link
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marymary1975
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As said before he hasn’t fail. Part of.hispproject refers to.the destruction of the temple.abd he speaks about the end of.Times.which hasn’t happened.yet. your problem.is that you are interpreting “generation” under the current English definition.of.the dictionary and what Jesus meant here is not necessarily our twenty first English definition of.generation ( to start this was said.in.Aramaic). Most archeologist indicate that he refers as to the Jewish nation. That all this will happen before the disappearance of the Jewish nation I.e. there will be Jews until the end of times.
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mikekle
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"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
–Matt 16:28
So, can anyone name just a couple of these people then?
An important point here is We all know Gods time is much different than our time, BUT God also knows fully well, how we think of time, so I think he would word his statements accordingly, he would not refer to a version we have no knowledge of, that would be pointless.
–Matt 16:28
So, can anyone name just a couple of these people then?
An important point here is We all know Gods time is much different than our time, BUT God also knows fully well, how we think of time, so I think he would word his statements accordingly, he would not refer to a version we have no knowledge of, that would be pointless.
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You
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The kingdom is within you. I’m sure it arrived when he defeated death and rose proving what he had said, the kingdom is within you.
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AmbroseSJ
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Supposedly hundreds of his disciples saw Jesus Ascending into Heaven. So all of them would be included in those who would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming into His kingdom. Although the Ascension is not described in detail, we can assume it was extremely glorious, filled with Angels and Saints accompanying Jesus into His Kingdom of Heaven.
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Here_For_Donuts
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The Gospels were written a few decades after the fact. The authors would’ve been writing around the time the prophecies (if interpreted as literal prophecies) should have already occurred. If the authors felt that Jesus’ words had somehow been incorrect, or that people would misunderstand them, then they probably wouldn’t have included them. There’s a certain school of textual criticism that believes that Jesus was preaching an immediate literal appearance of a kingdom of God, though this is not a widely held view.
I personally believe that the gospel needs to be read as a coherent whole, and that the author, writing decades later, knew how the text was going end and what was going to happen in the decades following. It seems clear to me and most others that the author of the gospel understood Jesus’ words as referring to His Resurrection.
To answer your question, I’ll quote St. Paul. “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.” (1 Corinthians 15:3-8)
Also, I recall reading somewhere once that “Heaven” exists wherever the presence of God is enjoyed.
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rnmvrck
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In Mark 13, three disciples come to Jesus and ask Him about “when the end will come” and His response is documented here and in other scriptures. Jesus is obviously referring to the end times and that no one knows the date and time of His second coming, but there will be many signs so people ought to be watching for these signs. And when you see these signs, the end will be near. Jesus says to the Jews “when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel the prophet, flee and flee immediately” (e.g., don’t get your coat). The abomination has occurred only once before in history before Jesus came when the Jewish temple Holy of Holies was taken over, idols erected, unclean animals sacrificed, and acts of lust committed in the Jewish Temple Holy of Holies. This brought about the Macabbean revolt. This abomination will come again in the Jewish temple, holy of holies midway theough the 7 year tribulation period when the anti-christ sets himslef up for idol worship in the jewish temple Holy of Holies. Some like to say that this ocurred in 70 AD, but this is a false teaching as the the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem never had a chance to commit the abomination of desolation as the temple caught fire, burned, and the Roman soldiers destroyed the temple looking for the gold so Jesus predicton that all stones would be overturned (Luke) came true. The only way Jesus comes back is when the Jewish nation seeks Him and asks Him to come back, and then He returns to the Mount of Olives with His robe dipped in the blood of His enemies at the valley of Megiddo, i.e, know as the battle of Arageddon. Of course, all this is in the scripture.
The other passages are similar and refer to a time not yet upon us, but looks like it is coming very soon.
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marymary1975
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This is personal.speculation but this may very well referred to St John who lived a long life and who did see the kingdom of God before dying.
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thistle
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Mark 9:1 is not the verse you quoted.
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:
Matt 24:34
Ver. 34. This generation; i.e. the nation of the Jews shall not cease to exist, until all these things shall be accomplished: thus we see the nation of the Jews still continue, and will certainly continue to the end of the world. (Tirinus) — Then the cross, which has been a scandal to the Jew, and a stumbling-block to the Gentile, shall appear in the heavens, for the consolation of the good Christian. Hoc signum crucis erit in cœlo, cum Dominus ad judicandum venerit. — If it be to be understood of the destruction of Jerusalem, the sense may be, this race of men now living; if of the last day of judgment, this generation of the faithful, saith Theophylactus,[4] shall be continued: i.e. the Church of Christ, to the end of the world. (Witham) — This race, I tell you in very truth, shall not pass away till all this be finally accomplished in the ruin of Jerusalem, the most express figure of the destruction and end of the world. (Bible de Vence) — By generation, our Saviour does not mean the people that were in existence at that time, but the faithful of his Church; thus says the psalmist: this is the generation of them that seek the Lord. (Psalm xxiii, ver. 6.) (St. Chrysostom, hom. lxxvii.)
Matt 16:28
Ver. 28. Till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Some expound this, as fulfilled at his transfiguration, which follows in the next chapter. Others understand it of the glory of Christ, and of his Church, after his resurrection and ascension, when he should be owned for Redeemer of the world: and this state of the Christian Church might be called the kingdom of Christ. (Witham) — This promise of a transitory view of his glory he makes, to prove that he should one day come in all the glory of his Father, to judge each man according to his works: not according to his mercy, or their faith, but according to their works. (St. Augustine, de verb. apos. serm. 35.) — Again, asks St. Augustine, how could our Saviour reward every one according to his works, if there were no free will? (lib. ii. chap. 4. 5. 8, de act. cum Fœlic. Manich.) (Bristow)
Luke 9:27
Ver. 27. Kingdom of God. This is generally understood of the transfiguration, in which Christ shewed to the three disciples an essay of his glory. (Calmet)
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ericc
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1 Cor 15:5-8 Paul mentioned that Jesus appeared to Peter, the Apostles and 500 brethren as well as James brother of our Lord and himself after his resurrection. Technically speaking, that would have met the requirements of the verse. Post resurrection, Christ, Son of Man came into his kingdom. If he did not, someone tell me where did he go. Whether with choirs of angels or not, is irrelevant.
Perhaps at the time of saying that verse, he knew some of the disciples may not have the opportunity to see Jesus in his post resurrection form. Some could have died earlier than he e.g. Judas.
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petra22
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