Jesus had brothers??????

[EphelDuath]

It says nothing about her nor any allusions to the mother of Messiah.

So, pray tell: what gates did the Lord go through?

No. The description of the suffering servant in the passage is to strong of correlation to Jesus’ life and ministry.

But the Lord passing through a gate does not describe the Virgin Birth?

Reading the chapter, the chapter itself will help to understand what is going on. There are some warnings in it.

The chapter proceeds to talk about a prince and the son of man. That’s a lot more explicit than Isaiah 53 is, yet you accept that as an obvious prophecy of Christ.

 

[EphelDuath]

The whole passage:

And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. 2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut 3 For the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. 4 And he brought me by the way of the north gate, in the sight of the house: and I saw, and behold the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell on my face. 5 And the Lord said to me: Son of man, attend with thy heart and behold with thy eyes, and hear with thy ears, all that I say to thee concerning all the ceremonies of the house of the Lord, and concerning all the laws thereof: and mark well the ways of the temple, with all the goings out of the sanctuary.

newadvent.org/bible/eze044.htm

 

[onmywayagain]

Who appointed you to “stop” others from teaching error? Jesus said to let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest, then He would send His angels to sort them out. The truth is you are not in a position to stopped people from teaching error. Your attention should be on what you are doing, and teaching people the truth yourself.

I recommend that you start by shutting off that program. Listen to EWTN, or Catholic radio, and don’;t support or participate in programs that teach error.

I understand what you are saying.

 

[onmywayagain]

Hello??!!

Did any one read my post?

This pastor is not teaching error! The Catholic Church agrees with him!

No you are wrong. This pastor said that Mary and Joeph had children. Not that Joseph had children before Mary.

 

[wisdomseeker]

interesting to notice that when mary and joseph were in egypt, after 12 years God said to mary and joseph: now pick up the child and go back to Jerusalem, he never said pick up the children and go.
May God help us to discern as we seek his salvation.

 

[guanophore]

interesting to notice that when mary and joseph were in egypt, after 12 years God said to mary and joseph: now pick up the child and go back to Jerusalem, he never said pick up the children and go.
May God help us to discern as we seek his salvation.

How do we know it was 12 years? I thought Herod only lived 4 years after Jesus’ birth? But still, you make an excellent point.

 

[justasking4]

EphelDuath;3159524]
The whole passage:

Quote:
And he brought me back to the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary, which looked towards the east: and it was shut. 2 And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it: because the Lord the God of Israel hath entered in by it, and it shall be shut 3 For the prince. The prince himself shall sit in it, to eat bread before the Lord: he shall enter in by the way of the porch of the gate, and shall go out by the same way. 4 And he brought me by the way of the north gate, in the sight of the house: and I saw, and behold the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell on my face. 5 And the Lord said to me: Son of man, attend with thy heart and behold with thy eyes, and hear with thy ears, all that I say to thee concerning all the ceremonies of the house of the Lord, and concerning all the laws thereof: and mark well the ways of the temple, with all the goings out of the sanctuary.

Where in this passage is there any thing about the mother of the Messiah?

 

[justasking4]

It sounds like this particular man is not a Catholic, and therefore may interpret it differently. In protestant Bibles, it talks about James the brother of Jesus. The term in the original language is very ambiguous and refers to a close relation of some kind, so it can mean brother or sister, or cousin. I believe the Cathoilc translation renders it as cousin.

I understand your concern, but speaking as a former Baptist, many of the fundamentalist/evangelical denominations do not believe in the ever virginity of Mary. These religions rely on a doctrine known as Sola Scriptura (or Scripture alone). If it should be believed, it is in the Bible, and the Bible makes no mention of the continuing virginity of Mary. Many also believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible ,and since their Bible includes references to a “brother” it only makes sense that they would believe that Jesus has a brother. Attempting to correct him will not work since he is not Catholic and therefore is not subject to our traditions, beliefs, and interpretations.

I hope this helps!

What makes you think that Jesus did not have brothers from Mary?

 

[EphelDuath]

Where in this passage is there any thing about the mother of the Messiah?

Do you know of any other gates that the Lord passed through? It would apply equally to them if they existed, though I guess none but Mary fulfill the prophecy.

The gate is where the son of man sits and receives nourishment. Sounds a lot like pregnancy.

You accuse me of “reading into” these passages to derive doctrine that’s not really there. I accuse you of the same thing for any verse regarding the Holy Spirit. Show me a single Biblical passage that explicitly says “the Holy Spirit is God and the third person of the Trinity.”

 

[justasking4]

EphelDuath;3162270]

Quote:justasking4
Where in this passage is there any thing about the mother of the Messiah?
EphelDuath
Do you know of any other gates that the Lord passed through? It would apply equally to them if they existed, though I guess none but Mary fulfill the prophecy.

The gate is where the son of man sits and receives nourishment. Sounds a lot like pregnancy.

I checked the New American Bible which is a catholic bible with notes and it says nothing of what you are claiming. Why do you think this is so?

You accuse me of “reading into” these passages to derive doctrine that’s not really there. I accuse you of the same thing for any verse regarding the Holy Spirit. Show me a single Biblical passage that explicitly says “the Holy Spirit is God and the third person of the Trinity.”

I don’t know what you are referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit. I don’t remember saying anything about that here.

 

[EphelDuath]

I checked the New American Bible which is a catholic bible with notes and it says nothing of what you are claiming. Why do you think this is so?

The NAB is not omniscient. Are you saying that doctrine is based on the efficiency of study bibles?

I don’t know what you are referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit. I don’t remember saying anything about that here.

Most of the passages regarding Mary are more explicit than the passages about the Holy Spirit. What is the strongest proof of the Holy Spirit? Would you not “read into that” the same amount as you would for the ten separate and explicit comparisons between Mary and the Ark?

 

[justasking4]

EphelDuath;3162425]
Quote:
I checked the New American Bible which is a catholic bible with notes and it says nothing of what you are claiming. Why do you think this is so?
EphelDuath
The NAB is not omniscient.

i didn’t say it was. However it is a source of scholarship or those who should know the Scriptures well to interpret them.

EphelDuath
Are you saying that doctrine is based on the efficiency of study bibles?

I’m saying doctrines should be grounded in the Scriptures.

Quote:
I don’t know what you are referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit. I don’t remember saying anything about that here.

EphelDuath
Most of the passages regarding Mary are more explicit than the passages about the Holy Spirit.

What passages regarding Mary are explicit about her immaculate conception and assumption?

What is the strongest proof of the Holy Spirit?

Let me give you a few passages to look up and study that i think will help to answer your question:
I Cor 2:10-12; John 14:26; Romans 8:14; 26; I Cor 6:11; Romans 8:15; John 14:26. These are just some of the many passges that deals with the Holy Spirit.

Would you not “read into that” the same amount as you would for the ten separate and explicit comparisons between Mary and the Ark?

I think making Mary out to be some kind of ark type is not biblical since the Scriptures never do.

---

 

[Tom]

What makes you think that Jesus did not have brothers from Mary?

The Bible never says she had other children, ever, anywhere. It doesn’t say they were children of Mary. It’s conjecture to say these “brothers and sisters” MUST be children of Mary. There simply is no indication they were children of Mary. If I’m wrong where is it in the Bible that any person, other than Jesus, is identified as the child of Mary?

 

[EphelDuath]

i didn’t say it was. However it is a source of scholarship or those who should know the Scriptures well to interpret them.

So you’re admitting that sola scriptura is a scam? Not only do you need scriptural proof, you need someone of importance to acknowledge the scriptural evidence?

(St. Jerome - Letters 47)

*Christ Himself is a virgin;1186 and His mother is also a virgin; yea, though she is His mother, she is a virgin still. For Jesus has entered in through the closed doors,1187 and in His sepulchre—a new one hewn out of the hardest rock—no man is laid either before Him or after Him.1188 Mary is “a garden enclosed …a fountain sealed,”1189 and from that fountain flows, according to Joel,1190 the river which waters the torrent bed either1191 of cords or of thorns;1192 of cords being those of the sins by which we were beforetime bound,1193 the thorns those which choked the seed the goodman of the house had sown.1194 **She is the east gate, spoken of by the prophet Ezekiel,1195 always shut and always shining, and either concealing or revealing the Holy of Holies; and through her “the Sun of Righteousness,”**1196 our “high priest after the order of Melchizedek,”1197 goes in and out. Let my critics explain to me how Jesus can have entered in through closed doors when He allowed His hands and His side to be handled, and showed that He had bones and flesh,1198 thus proving that His was a true body and no mere phantom of one, and I will explain how the holy Mary can be at once a mother and a virgin. A mother before she was wedded, she remained a virgin after bearing her son. Therefore, as I was going to say, the virgin Christ and the virgin Mary have dedicated in themselves the first fruits of virginity for both sexes. *

I’m saying doctrines should be grounded in the Scriptures.

The Immaculate Conception is. You’re denying it because nowhere does the Bible explicitly say “Mary was removed from original sin by God,” though you can learn this idea by reading the text.

I Cor 2:10-12; John 14:26; Romans 8:14; 26; I Cor 6:11; Romans 8:15; John 14:26. These are just some of the many passges that deals with the Holy Spirit.

None of these say “the Holy Spirit is God, worship him as the third person of the Trinity.” You’re reading into the passages. Your doctrine is unbiblical, (etc.)

I think making Mary out to be some kind of ark type is not biblical since the Scriptures never do.

So it’s a pure accident that Luke explicitly says Mary does all of the things the Ark does, but you’re not reading into the above passages when you say the Holy Spirit is God?

 

[justasking4]

Tom;3162524]
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
What makes you think that Jesus did not have brothers from Mary?
Tom
The Bible never says she had other children, ever, anywhere. It doesn’t say they were children of Mary. It’s conjecture to say these “brothers and sisters” MUST be children of Mary. There simply is no indication they were children of Mary. If I’m wrong where is it in the Bible that any person, other than Jesus, is identified as the child of Mary?

Here is a passage that you can look up that does demonstrate she did have other natural children. Its found in Matt 13:55-56 which says:
55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

When “brothers and sisters” are used in connection with father or mother, then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters.

 

[EphelDuath]

James and Joseph are sons of Mary, wife of Clopas.

cf. Matthew 27:56 / Mark 15:47

The people saying these things are in the crowd, and are not infallible, by the way; I wouldn’t toss out Ezekiel 44:2 because it’s not explicit enough (despite the fact that it actually says “son of man”) but then accept random commoners as evidence that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

When “brothers and sisters” are used in connection with father or mother, then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters.

Adelphoi can also translate as kinsmen.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Here is a passage that you can look up that does demonstrate she did have other natural children. Its found in Matt 13:55-56 which says:
55 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?
56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

When “brothers and sisters” are used in connection with father or mother, then it does not mean cousins but actual blood brothers and sisters.

I thought they were His apostles, not His siblings

 

[justasking4]

EphelDuath;3162528]
Quote:justasking4
i didn’t say it was. However it is a source of scholarship or those who should know the Scriptures well to interpret them.
EphelDuath
So you’re admitting that sola scriptura is a scam?

No.

Not only do you need scriptural proof, you need someone of importance to acknowledge the scriptural evidence?

Yes. Christ gave to the church teachers. Paul exhorts Timothy to immerse himself in the Scriptures that he might teach them.

(St. Jerome - Letters 47)

Christ Himself is a virgin;1186 and His mother is also a virgin; yea, though she is His mother, she is a virgin still. For Jesus has entered in through the closed doors,1187 and in His sepulchre—a new one hewn out of the hardest rock—no man is laid either before Him or after Him.1188 Mary is “a garden enclosed …a fountain sealed,”1189 and from that fountain flows, according to Joel,1190 the river which waters the torrent bed either1191 of cords or of thorns;1192 of cords being those of the sins by which we were beforetime bound,1193 the thorns those which choked the seed the goodman of the house had sown.1194 She is the east gate, spoken of by the prophet Ezekiel,1195 always shut and always shining, and either concealing or revealing the Holy of Holies; and through her “the Sun of Righteousness,”1196 our “high priest after the order of Melchizedek,”1197 goes in and out. Let my critics explain to me how Jesus can have entered in through closed doors when He allowed His hands and His side to be handled, and showed that He had bones and flesh,1198 thus proving that His was a true body and no mere phantom of one, and I will explain how the holy Mary can be at once a mother and a virgin. A mother before she was wedded, she remained a virgin after bearing her son. Therefore, as I was going to say, the virgin Christ and the virgin Mary have dedicated in themselves the first fruits of virginity for both sexes.

Quote:justasking4
I’m saying doctrines should be grounded in the Scriptures.
EphelDuath
The Immaculate Conception is. You’re denying it because nowhere does the Bible explicitly say “Mary was removed from original sin by God,” though you can learn this idea by reading the text.

Would you happen to have the passage for this or is this passage in Ezek that you have referred to?

Are there any passages in the NT for her Immaculate Conception?

Quote:justasking4
I Cor 2:10-12; John 14:26; Romans 8:14; 26; I Cor 6:11; Romans 8:15; John 14:26. These are just some of the many passges that deals with the Holy Spirit.

EphelDuath
None of these say “the Holy Spirit is God, worship him as the third person of the Trinity.” You’re reading into the passages. Your doctrine is unbiblical, (etc.)

Here is one reference to the deity of the Holy Spirit from 1 Cor 2:10-11;
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Doesn’t the catholic church believe the Holy Spirit is God?

Quote:justasking4
I think making Mary out to be some kind of ark type is not biblical since the Scriptures never do.
EphelDuath
So it’s a pure accident that Luke explicitly says Mary does all of the things the Ark does, but you’re not reading into the above passages when you say the Holy Spirit is God?

Huh? Where does it say she does all the things the Ark does?

---

 

[justasking4]

I thought they were His apostles, not His siblings

In some cases they could be both. James was a brother and an apostle after the resurrection.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

In some cases they could be both. James was a brother and an apostle after the resurrection.

Which James are we talking about?