But can you explain why Mary asked how it was possible that she would conceive, if she intended to have sex with Joseph? If you cannot, then it must be conceded that it was in fact “heard of” for two people to be married and not have children.
No, you’re not dense at all. I was in a similar place a few years ago. Although, as a Catholic I didn’t really care if the perpetual virginity of Mary was even implied in Scripture, to me it just didn’t matter. When I was told her perpetual virginity was definitely shown in Luke, Matthew, and Numbers, I simply didn’t believe it, and besides to me it didn’t matter. I read several books which tried to explain it, still I didn’t understand. I, like you, simply didn’t get it. If you go step by step as we’re trying to, it can’t escape you. You may be reluctant because you don’t believe it will prove anything, you may be reluctant because you see exactly where it will lead, I don’t know. If you truly want to understand this Catholic teaching (and it is true) you need to go step by step. If you don’t want to understand, simply give up. It’s all up to you. You ask where I’m going with this? I’m going to show you why she must have been under a vow of virginity, I’m going to show Joseph knew of this vow when the two became engaged, I’m going to show that this teaching is not simply a mistake Catholics make, but a purposeful teaching God wants us to know (for what reason He wants I have no idea), I’m going to show that Joseph and Mary could not have had sexual relations after the birth according to Jewish Law, and I’m going to show all of this solely from Scripture. But, it’s going to take time and patience. If you’d like to learn the truth, let’s do it. If not, I understand.
You err greatly, not knowing the scriptures.
See Numbers 30 above.
:clapping:
Can you show me where Mary makes a vow to be a virgin all her life?
Might that help?
Having sex and children is the norm for married people. This is God’s intention.
That would not apply to them since scripture records they did have children.
Not so. There could be a number of reasons why some of His brothers were not there. They could have been “out of town” so to speak and it word traveled a lot slow in those days. Secondly we know that His brothers did not believe in Him during His earthly ministry. See John 7:5
There is no evidence in the scriptures that Jospeh was a widower.
They fall short in that there are better explaniations than you give here. We both know that if Mary had children after Jesus was born that would not have nullified the prophecy that Jesus would be born of a virgin. That had to happen. After He was born there is no restrictions on them to have a full sex life that all married couples have a right and obligation to produce children.
Not satisfactory. You still haven’t explained why Mary asked the question.
Then why didn’t Jesus tell John to bring his mother to his brothers?
You seem to believe that religious teaching must be supported by scripture, no? If, as you say, Mary’s perpetual virginity has no effect on the Faith, why do you look for evidence in the Bible? If it is not religious, then it is a historical event. If you believe it is a religious matter, then we use the Bible. If it is historical, as you seem to think, extrabiblical sources (like the Didache- did I spell that right?) are not only possible, but much more practical.
Are you referring to the question to the angel “how can this be…”?
No need to. If He trusted John to care for Mary then He would leave the details up to him. When you trust someone you don’t need to tell them all the details about something.
yes
The only reliable things we know about her are found in the scriptures. The catholic church is also making a truth claim about her that is not supported by the scriptures.
Many religious-spirtual claims in the scriptures can be found also to have support in history. Take the death of Christ on the cross. That was a historical event that also had great theological ramifications for mankind. Extra bibilcal sources are used in support of the scriptures but they are not the primary source for the faith.
yes
You have not yet conceded your error. There is no point in responding to further questions from you as long as you remain obstinate in your errors.
Would you care to explain how the words used in Scripture, coupled with other references in context, make it clear Mary and Joseph had their own children, instead of making bald and baseless assertions?
No they are not! Nowhere in Scripture is ANYONE other than Jesus identified as a child of Mary. Now re-read my post, do you want to learn or not?
That still does not mean Mary took such a vow. Please answer my question where in the passage Mary is supposedly taking a vow that she would be a virgin all her life?
Now if you are not willing to concede the point then what exactly is the point of having this discussion. All it boils down to is you demanding answers , then when they are given you just brush them off and make more demands. Not much of a discussion
Not so. The ball is in your court now. Just show me the specific passage where Mary makes a life long vow to be a virgin.
Get a greek lexicon of the NT and see what the words mean in context. Even the plain reading of probably any translation i know of says these are the brothers and sisters of Jesus and not cousins.Would you care to explain how the words used in Scripture, coupled with other references in context, make it clear Mary and Joseph had their own children, instead of making bald and baseless assertions?
Pax vobiscum
Good Fella
Not so. For example; when brothers and sisters are used in connection with father or mother it means actual blood brothers etc. See Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3; and Luke 14:26 to name just a few passage the clearly demonstrate Jesus did have actual blood brothers and sisters by Mary and Joseph.
i already am. You need to deal with this above and not just dimiss it out of hand. Get a Greek lexicon of the NT and look these words up and you find what i mean.
