Jesus had siblings?

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I don’t continue to argue with people who sincerely believe that all physics is caused by tiny gnomes, or people who sincerely believe in government conspiracies, or people who sincerely believe that Da Vinci Code is the most amazing book ever written. However, that doesn’t mean that I’ve come to agree with them. By the same token, there’s only so much anyone can argue when your final argument comes down to “The church says so.”

I actually came to this forum because my sweetie grew up Roman Catholic, and I thought that it would be good for me to learn about the church and to consider becoming part of it. We were talking about going to mass together, and we spoke to the priest about baptizing our son.

Since being part of this forum and beginning to learn the facts about the RCC, I can tell you that two things have happened. First, I’ve realized that I could never be Roman Catholic. Second, my partner has decided that he made the right decision when he was a teenager and left the church. I’m still here because I keep hoping that I’m misunderstanding something, or that I’m missing something, but I’m becoming to doubt that.
Yeah. For sure.

Coming to Catholic threads and pretending to be an uncommited seeker, who then dramatically claims to have been turned away from Catholicism by the answers received, is an old old trick.

A true seeker, however, does not constantly make sarcastic and antagonistic comments to those they are in discussion with. Nor do they refuse to read and engage with the many thoughtful and detailed posts, such as those in this thread, preferring to mouth slogans and try and caricature what is believed by Catholics.

Sorry. Ruse failed. 🤷
 
’PURE" - A WORD MISUSED?

** To me,** the concept of the “Holy Family” doesn’t preclude Mary, a dutiful mother and wife, and Joseph, a devoted husband and ‘father’, as a happily married couple who viewed sexual relations as a wonderful gift from God, and welcomed them joyfully both with a degree of reverence and certainly with a sense of celebration. I don’t see why it’s so outrageous if we envision them as ‘one flesh’ - as the scriptures and the wedding ceremony describe marriage.
And there you have it in a nutshell: to YOU.

Not what the Church says, not what doctrine says, not even immutible Truth, but your own personal opinion.
 
IF WE CAN’T HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS
Code:
 Sometimes I wonder why we have these forums if we can't express different views without being treated like lepers. If we always have to conform, it's silly to invite discussion. We simply need to parrot the catechism. 

 God gave us a brain, and I gratefully use mine. This means that I sometimes find myself at odds with the church. For example, the Pope condemned the use of condoms in Africa recently. Yet, the church declares it must stand for life from conception until death. Condoms have been shown to save lives. Isn't there a contradiction there. We all know that abstinence is to be preferred, but we need to live in the world as it exists and promote policies that fit the reality.

 Perhaps I am too influenced by American democracy where different opinions are welcome, part of our great system. Maybe the church simply doesn't want those who aren't 'yes people'. Open and honest discussion, even debate, moves individuals, organizations and the Church toward new understandings. I have read the revered Church Fathers, who lived before the telescope and microscope of today, and I certainly wouldn't want to have to believe everything they believed. New information should produce new insights.

  I recall how I revered St. Thomas Aquinas. Then one day in reading his Summa Theologica I read how he thought heretics should be handled. Turn them over to the civil authorities to be executed. Are you are familaar with the "Syllabus of Errors" by 'blessed' Pope Pius IX. I certainly hope this abominable document doesn't reflect the Church of today, and it certainly doesn't mirror the views of most USA Catholics.

But, back to our thread. I'm inclined to think that Jesus did not have siblings, but it wouldn't upset my faith for even a second if Mary and Joseph had additional children.
 
Brother, you hit the nail right on the head!

It is very easy to come up with one’s personal interpretations of concepts or events that occurred (or did not occur) more than 2,000 years ago, and claim such interpretations as absolute truth. Catholic interpretations and Dogmas are based on the Bible and Traditions. Many Traditions are backed up by manuscripts attributed to the Early Church Fathers.

The highly learned Dr. Scott Hahn, who used to be a staunch defender of Presbyterian faith and attacker of the Catholic Christian faith researched so very many manuscripts and books, and was enlightened as to what “truth” really is. Thus, he turned away from Presbyterian faith and turned to the Catholic Christian faith from which he earlier “plucked” so many floating believers with weak foundation. Please read the Dr. Scott Hahn Conversion Story at: catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0088.html
 
It certainly is amazing how often non-catholics throw in digs against infallibility and then profoundly claim their faith in Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity. The same Trinity whose Third Person, the Holy Spirit is the one who leads the Curch in Her infallibility.

Keep pushing your tray down the cafeteria line as you pick and choose which of God’s truths you want to believe or not, Catholic or not. Truth is truth no matter what denomination you hail allegiance to.

Eddie Mac
Hello eddie,
Which truths have you picked?
See Rom.2:10-11. God does not show favotitism. 🙂

God bless,
jean
 
IF WE CAN’T HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS
Code:
 Sometimes I wonder why we have these forums if we can't express different views without being treated like lepers. If we always have to conform, it's silly to invite discussion. We simply need to parrot the catechism. 

 God gave us a brain, and I gratefully use mine. This means that I sometimes find myself at odds with the church. For example, the Pope condemned the use of condoms in Africa recently. Yet, the church declares it must stand for life from conception until death. Condoms have been shown to save lives. Isn't there a contradiction there. We all know that abstinence is to be preferred, but we need to live in the world as it exists and promote policies that fit the reality.

 Perhaps I am too influenced by American democracy where different opinions are welcome, part of our great system. Maybe the church simply doesn't want those who aren't 'yes people'. Open and honest discussion, even debate, moves individuals, organizations and the Church toward new understandings. I have read the revered Church Fathers, who lived before the telescope and microscope of today, and I certainly wouldn't want to have to believe everything they believed. New information should produce new insights.

  I recall how I revered St. Thomas Aquinas. Then one day in reading his Summa Theologica I read how he thought heretics should be handled. Turn them over to the civil authorities to be executed. Are you are familaar with the "Syllabus of Errors" by 'blessed' Pope Pius IX. I certainly hope this abominable document doesn't reflect the Church of today, and it certainly doesn't mirror the views of most USA Catholics.

But, back to our thread. I'm inclined to think that Jesus did not have siblings, but it wouldn't upset my faith for even a second if Mary and Joseph had additional children.
Roy, its not that the Catholic Church wants people to have blind faith. It doesn’t. It wants people to use their full force of reason to find the truth.

Now lets use some reason here. The church’s teaching on Faith and Morals is a direct reflection of the teaching of the Apostles, painstakingly passed down from Bishop to Bishop and then to the people for 2000 years. It has been contemplated on and defended by literally millions of Catholic Theologians over that horizon, including some of the most brilliant scholars like Augustine and Aquinas and frankly Benedict XVI. Now how can any individual, reasonably believe that his own interpretations of the Bible could be more correct than those propagated for 2000 years by all those people and with all that divine authority. The Catholic way is to recognize our own limitations and to trust that the Holy Spirit has truly guided the Church to the truth. We humbly understand that our own revelations and interpretations carry no weight when balanced against that of the Church.
So we don’t debate the Church on issues of Faith and morals, we accept the truth and mold our actions to it. This is not to say we don’t think. We do. We just put our efforts into learning the truth instead of trying to create new truths, which is of course a fool’s errand.

As for the Pope saying that condoms contribute to the problems in Africa, well my friend, they also contribute to problems in America. You might say to me that condoms protect users from STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Well, I would tell you that they also provide a sense of unwarranted security that leads people to engage in dangerous sexual behavior thinking it has no ramifications. This second factor overwhelms the first. Did you know that CDC statistics say that average use of condoms will reduce the likelihood of pregnancy for a couple in a given year from 85% to 15%. That seems great, right? Well, not if it induces many more people to have sex, thinking the odds of avoiding pregancy are now in their favor. Now, studies indicate that 50% of highschool seniors are having sex. So if you have a class of 28 kids, 14 are having sex (7 couples) and 1 of them will get pregnant each year. For every single classroom. That is why 25% of our births are to teenagers and we have 2 Million abortions a year. We also have 25% of our teenage girls with an STD (50% of the sexually active). A third of all US births are now out of wedlock.

Now compare that with the statistics 50 years ago, before birth control was readily available. High school pregnancies were virtually unheard of, less than 5% of births were out of wedlock, and STDs were far less prevalent. And abortions were illegal and rare as well.

So how could this be? Why did the advent of birthcontrol drive unplanned births, abortions, and STDs out of control, the opposite of what was intended? Well the simple and undeniable reason is that people believed that birth control eliminated the possibility of unwanted pregnancies and STDs when in fact, they only reduce those possibilities. Plainly put, people thought there were no longer ramifications to having sex, and acted accordingly, increasing the incident of unmarried and risky sex to a rate much higher than the reduction in pregnancy and STDs created by the use of birth control methods.
This was predicted by Pope Paul VI when he condemned the use of birthcontrol in the 1960s and unfortunately, he was very prophetic.

As for Thomas Aquinas, he was a man of his age and in that time, people who led others into error were dangerous and needed to be either corrected or if they persisted, in their obstinance, executed. Remember, the Jews stoned people for blasphemy and adultery. Different societies have different philosophies. It is wrong to judge them out of context.

As for the Syllabus of errors, which ones do you object to. They all seem correct to me.
 
Hello eddie,
Which truths have you picked?
See Rom.2:10-11. God does not show favotitism. 🙂

God bless,
jean
yes, Jean. He judges us all to the same criteria, whether we believe in that criteria or not. He is demanding good works to be saved. And the truths he teaches, as a Catholic Apostle, are the truths passed down through the Catholic Church

Broaden that quote to Romans 2: 5-16 and get the whole thought.
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.
 
paul c,

Very good response!

I say yes to all that you said because they are based on complete Bible verses, not on fragmented verses whose meanings are taken out of context.

Oftentimes, non-Catholics pick a verse here, a verse there, a verse anywhere but excluding totally relevant verses before and after their chosen verses, and then interpret it the way they want those verses interpreted to support their idea.

In a Bible Study class that i attended (I did not know it was “ecuminical” and not Catholic because it was the first session and the “teachers” were guests), the couple cited in sequence several verses. I quickly sensed their purpose in citing such verses in that initial BS session: To emphasize to those present that religion cannot save a soul, church is not essential, that one has to be “born again” to be saved. He said that once a person accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour, he/she is assured of salvation.

In an effort to urge people to do the “acceptance” right there and then, they gave a story, which is: There was a car driver whose vehicle turned over and one of his arms extended out of the car. He was stuck and he saw his Rolex watch on the gutter. He had two options at that very moment: one is to pick up the Rolex and the other was to hold the hand of a person who was trying to pull him out of the car. He said that the driver chose to pick his Rolex watch, so the person saving him ran away and the car exploded, kiling the driver.

When it was my turn to answer their question i said, "I accepted Jesus as the world’s and my personal Lord and Savior a long, long time ago when I was a child. Previous to that, I was “born again” when i was baptized. That trigerred discussion on salvation, good works, what kind of sin and how many sins will keep one from entering heaven, etc.

Their beliefs and teachings all point to having a license to do anything after accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. The man who killed 10 persons in Alabama about two weeks ago. The news had it, among others, that the guy was looking for his Bible. He is from a family of Bible-based Christians and thus has accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. Those who deep in your heart and conscience strongly believe he will or has gone straight to eternal salvation, please sound out.

Thank you.
 
I’m going to respond to the gentleman who brought up the subject of Blessed Pius IX and St. Thomas Aquinas.

I’m ashamed to admit it, but Holy Mother Church through some of those whose written works and acts are seemingly so revered has been respoonsible for the shedding of much innocent blood over the centuries. I’m as certain now, as I was in the seminary, (got a M. Div. but refused ordination), that Jesus was and probably still is horrified at the many things His Church has been guilty of. I’m equally certain that those responsible for these atrocities are getting there just punishment.

With respect to Pius IX-

When JPII beatified the man he did it while at the same time beatifying Blessed John XXIII. I heard it said and read the same thing on that occasion- that JPII would not have beatified John XXIII if he could not have somehow devised a way to beatify someone of a conservative stripe not unlike his own. My cousins (who still reside in Italy) said there was no excuse for the beatification of Pius IX and that if anyone prayed TO him it would be a miracle because the Church still bore the scars of his reign and ignorance. I trust my one cousin in particular knows from whence he speaks since he’s a bishop. I’ve heard the same thing said of St. Pius X and heard that in seminary. Point is, most folks who know anything of church history could not and still do not understand how JPII couold have beatified Pius IX. In fact, most Italians and many Catholics across the globe found it offensive that Pius IX was beatified in tandem with John XXIII. Even today, many can’t find good reason for JPII’s actions re Pius IX.

Looking to the future, there’s some folks now coming out with things they know about JPII. For me, it is to soon to make well founded judgements about JPII, his reign, and legacy. I do know many devout Catholics who cannot fathon his being a candidate for sainthood. One friend of mine, a member of the heirarchy and my former seminary instructor, has told me he never knew a more hard-hearted and inhumane man than the recently deceased Holy Father. He also told me that even though he owed his rise in the heirarchy to JPII and was humbled to be found worthy to serve the church as bishop, that it would take forever for Holy Mother Church to recover from the man’s 26 year papacy. Of course, Cardinal Giuseppe Siri of happy memory said the same thing of John XXIII and Paul VI, yet came within an ace of becoming pope in the conclaves of 1978.

One is left to wonder what goes on in the Vatican or at least in the minds of those who advise our popes or the popes themselves.

Pax Tecum,
Rob
:rolleyes:
 
paul c,

Very good response!

I say yes to all that you said because they are based on complete Bible verses, not on fragmented verses whose meanings are taken out of context.

Oftentimes, non-Catholics pick a verse here, a verse there, a verse anywhere but excluding totally relevant verses before and after their chosen verses, and then interpret it the way they want those verses interpreted to support their idea.

In a Bible Study class that i attended (I did not know it was “ecuminical” and not Catholic because it was the first session and the “teachers” were guests), the couple cited in sequence several verses. I quickly sensed their purpose in citing such verses in that initial BS session: To emphasize to those present that religion cannot save a soul, church is not essential, that one has to be “born again” to be saved. He said that once a person accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Saviour, he/she is assured of salvation.

In an effort to urge people to do the “acceptance” right there and then, they gave a story, which is: There was a car driver whose vehicle turned over and one of his arms extended out of the car. He was stuck and he saw his Rolex watch on the gutter. He had two options at that very moment: one is to pick up the Rolex and the other was to hold the hand of a person who was trying to pull him out of the car. He said that the driver chose to pick his Rolex watch, so the person saving him ran away and the car exploded, kiling the driver.

When it was my turn to answer their question i said, "I accepted Jesus as the world’s and my personal Lord and Savior a long, long time ago when I was a child. Previous to that, I was “born again” when i was baptized. That trigerred discussion on salvation, good works, what kind of sin and how many sins will keep one from entering heaven, etc.

Their beliefs and teachings all point to having a license to do anything after accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. The man who killed 10 persons in Alabama about two weeks ago. The news had it, among others, that the guy was looking for his Bible. He is from a family of Bible-based Christians and thus has accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. Those who deep in your heart and conscience strongly believe he will or has gone straight to eternal salvation, please sound out.

Thank you.
Well, to be fair there are two distinct groups of Protestants.
The “Free Grace” protestants believe that they are saved by Grace through faith. They believe that man is predestined to heaven or hell and that only those that are predestined for heaven have the grace to declare their faith in Jesus Christ, and hence they will be saved. They believe that man’s free will is inoperative in the face of God’s divine plan and hence, nothing they do effects their salvation, which is a free gift. Of course, the weakness of this argument are two fold. First of all, it forces a just God to declare sinners and apostasizers as righteous. Second of all, it ignores or rationalizes away the dozens of biblical statements that demonstrate that we will be judged based on our actions.

The second group. some of which call themselves followers of " Lordship Salvation" recognize the weakness of the Free Grace argument. They still believe that we are saved by Grace through faith (as do we, for that matter). However, in their view, one who has real faith will do good works to demonstrate that faith. If someone sins or apostasizes, the judgement of the followers of Lordship salvation will be that they were never really faithful or a member of the elect. This is not effectively different from the Catholic view that you need to do good words to stay in the state of grace. Follower’s of Lordship Salvation, do have a problem reconciling themselves to the fundamental disconnect between having to do good works to demonstrate their being a member of the elect to the point of death , and the Protestant view of assurance of salvation. I’ve never had a member of this group explain how both could be true.

The major issue between the Lordship Salvation view and the Catholic View is that , with no apostolic succession, they have no access to the sacraments and therefore don’t recognize their role. This eliminates the ability to eliminate sin, once commited.
 
Pardon me for intruding again, but i saw another comment that needs a response- the one concerning the Syllabus of Errors and that they all seemed correct to writer. Then the writer asked “which one do you believe in?”.

I don’t feel it is so much a matter of which of the syllabi one believes in. I believe it is a matter of the spirit in which the syllabi were delivered. In most cases it would have been better for these matters to have been handled with compassion instead of being handed down in the form of a dictum or polemic of some form. in other words, i harken to what my Dad taught me from infancy until his death in 1982- “Son, always remember you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Leaders of Holy Mother Church would do well to remember that when issuing documents intended to instruct or correct her flock. Frankly, it would also help if whomever it is that translates the Latin to English would use some elegance of tongue. The stilted language we get from Rome, in and of itself, turns me off and my military duty was translation. (I’m fluent in 9 languages other than English, Latin, and Koine Greek.) I hope i did a better job than those guys responsible for translating Vatican documents for us! I must have or i’d probably still be in the brig!
 
but we need to live in the world as it exists and promote policies that fit the reality.
The world as it exists is the problem and your idea of reality is not necessarily the same as God’s. According to your reality as the world grows more heretic, apostate, and sinful, we (Christ’s Church) just need to modify our “policies” to be in line with the world?

I do not want to live in your reality or world, thank you.

Eddie Mac
 
Hello eddie,
Which truths have you picked?
See Rom.2:10-11. God does not show favotitism. 🙂

God bless,
jean
John 21:15-17

Matthew 16:18

Infallibility of the Church, jean. Something you obviously have problems with, not me.

Romans 2:10-11 has nothing to do with infallibility but has everything to do with your trying to justify your disagreement with Church teaching. You are trying to use a gospel passage that says God has no partiality to justify your decision to deny truth? Denying the guidance of the Church by the Holy Spirit is denying God Himself.

Eddie Mac
 
Pardon me for intruding again, but i saw another comment that needs a response- the one concerning the Syllabus of Errors and that they all seemed correct to writer. Then the writer asked “which one do you believe in?”.

I don’t feel it is so much a matter of which of the syllabi one believes in. I believe it is a matter of the spirit in which the syllabi were delivered. In most cases it would have been better for these matters to have been handled with compassion instead of being handed down in the form of a dictum or polemic of some form. in other words, i harken to what my Dad taught me from infancy until his death in 1982- “Son, always remember you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.” Leaders of Holy Mother Church would do well to remember that when issuing documents intended to instruct or correct her flock. Frankly, it would also help if whomever it is that translates the Latin to English would use some elegance of tongue. The stilted language we get from Rome, in and of itself, turns me off and my military duty was translation. (I’m fluent in 9 languages other than English, Latin, and Koine Greek.) I hope i did a better job than those guys responsible for translating Vatican documents for us! I must have or i’d probably still be in the brig!
It would be suitable to consider the events taking place at that time and the driving force that lead to some of these decisions. Information regarding the Syllabus that should help in understanding the subject more clearly;

The general contents of the Syllabus are summed up in the headings of the ten paragraphs, under which, the eighty theses are grouped. They are: Pantheism, Naturalism, Absolute Rationalism (1-7); Moderate Rationalism (8-14); Indifferentism and false Tolerance in Religious matters (15-18); Socialism, Communism, Secret Societies, Bible Societies, Liberal Clerical Associations (reference is made to three Encyclicals and two Allocutions of the pope, in which these tendencies are condemned), Errors regarding the Church and its rights (19-38); Errors on the State and its Relation to the Church (39-55); Errors on Natural and Christian Ethics (56-64); Errors on Christian Marriage (65-74); Errors on the Temporal Power of the Pope (75-76); Errors in Connection with Modern Liberalism (77-80). The content of any one thesis of the Syllabus is to be determined according to the laws of scientific interpretation. First of all, one has to refer to the papal documents connected with each thesis. For, in accordance with the peculiar character of the Syllabus, the meaning of the thesis is determined by the meaning of the document it is drawn from. Thus the often-cited eightieth thesis “The pope may and must reconcile himself with, and adapt himself to, Progress, Liberalism, and Modern Civilization”, is to be explained with the help of the Allocution “Jamdudum cernimus” of 18 March, 1861. In this allocution the pope expressly distinguishes between true and false civilization, and declares that history witnesses to the fact that the Holy See has always been the protector and patron of all genuine civilization; and he affirms that, if a system designed to de-Christianize the world be called a system of progress and civilization, he can never hold out the hand of peace to such a system. According to the words of this allocution, then, it is evident that the eightieth thesis of the Syllabus applies to false progress and false Liberalism and not to honest pioneer-work seeking to open out new fields to human activity.
Continued at;
newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm

If we look at our society and our priorities today, one can relate to periodic reevaluation of our life styles with no question…
Continued next post.
 
Now someone approached Jesus and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’" The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this statement, he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Amen, I say to you, it will be hard for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.” ( Mt Ch 19: 16,23)

Addiction, yes addiction. There is no other word that better describes what most of us succumb to when it comes to the so called “goals” we set for ourselves in this time of separation from God and family in the pursuit of “happiness”. Is this to say goals are bad? Of course not. But we need to consider what we choose for our goals and the level of importance we place on them. Can it be just a coincidence that the more we remove God and prayer from our daily lives, schools, public places and so on that the number one priority of the average individual becomes him or herself above everything and everyone else along with whatever “things” they can own or reward themselves with? For many it is not enough to own as much or more than the next person, but to own the most flamboyant, flashy objects clothes house and cars as one can afford or to their limit of affordability. And for what reason? And even more importantly, to what cost and to what or who’s sacrifice? Is it because those things are the best in quality or durability? Or is it because of Self pride and ego to show one’s self above others? Consider this. If it were for the reason of quality and durability it would make sense to purchase and keep those items for the life of the object to get the value out of it. Which means we would not have to frequently purchase or replace the same serving objects but instead use what we have for a much longer time. How many people with BMW automobiles keep them for four, six or eight years before replacing them?

Lets say an individual buys a BMW automobile instead of a Chevrolet. Do they then keep that car for its useful life? Or do they go out and replace it in a year or two or three for another upper end automobile? Who would be so naive as to believe the lower priced car wouldn’t serve just as long as the BMW for the average time most would possess the upper priced car? But it’s about “Status”, feeding pride and ego so it must be replaced more frequently to serve its true purpose.

How much of an income does one require or how large of a home does a person need to possess to bring about comfortable living conditions before the home becomes nothing more than a house and again, a status symbol for self pride and ego. Now days so deemed large “luxury homes” that use to be constructed on acres and acres of ground hardly visible to their neighboring properties are being constructed on top of each other in major subdivisions with barely enough room to walk between them. Why? Could it be because so many people get drawn into the “status” issue through pride and ego that they must have a “luxury home” even if it means it barely fits on the lot it was built on?

You could say it’s the market but then we create the market. Some will question what is so wrong with pursuing life this way and what is wrong with being “successful”? If you were truly Christian you would know the answer to those questions. If you must ask these questions, you are called to seek further knowledge in Christ. The questions should be, at what point does success become greed and then to what cost and to what or who’s sacrifice do we attain our goals?

If you must go beyond comfort to satisfy your pride and ego, you abandon the practices of humility and charity toward others as Christianity proclaims. Pride is proven over and over and over to be the foundation of all sin and those who absolutely hate to hear the term sin distance themselves from God because His word and His calling interferes with those goals that satisfy pride, avarice, lust, envy, gluttony, anger, and sloth, otherwise know as “the seven capital sins”. And why are they called this? Because they are “Those sins to which man’s fallen nature is mainly inclined and that are, as a result, the source of all other human failings”. *Modern Catholic Dictionary *by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

A person who wishes to see them self as they really are must step back outside of them self and consider their priorities and the goals they have reached with the goals they continue to pursue. Is it that every goal reached and every item purchased turns out to be less than the satisfying object that they thought would make them happy? Do they have to go on to another object to further pursue satisfaction? And the big question that is hardest to admit to, “is there really a point when a person reaches total satisfaction through materialism and wealth? The honest answer is NO.

continued…
 
What lengths have they gone and would they go to get what they want as apposed to what they need to live a truly satisfying life? If a person hides what they buy from their loved ones because they buy so frequently things they really don’t need, it’s a sign. If a person can ignore the sight of one who has no home, food or reasonable clothing, to feed their self pride, it’s a sign. If a person can never get enough and can pursue their goals or objectives at the sacrifice and expense of their loved ones, friends and family, it’s a sign. There will never be satisfaction for people who are lost in the addiction of materialism. They will always be looking for that which will satisfy themselves because they can not see that they are addicted. Addicted to what man wants them to seek, to acquire, to desire all to feed another mans (usually manufacturers) goals to satisfy his own pride, ego and greed.

For some very sad and unfortunate reason, most people don’t realize they are nothing more than pawns played by their own weaknesses, especially their pride driven selfishness until one day it dawns on them they have wasted the better part of their lives chasing goals based on artificial rewards and man’s own ideals. It is not until then that some, but only some blessed by the grace of God, realize they have been looking in the wrong place for success, satisfaction and happiness and an awareness of emptiness in their heart leads them in the direction of God. For some it will be an expensive and very long path. For others they will realize sooner and return as “the prodigal son”. Yet for still others, they will never realize until their time has come to an end and all they have to show for their life is nothing more than some man made objects that they possess. Things they held so valuable but suddenly will no longer have value because they can’t take it with them and they don’t truly know Our Lord. All they have is the fear of which eternity their life has earned them. Did you ever wonder why some of the poorest people monetarily can find such satisfaction, happiness and fulfillment with nothing more than their knowledge and love of God and their family? To pray that many may learn from the few.
 
The world as it exists is the problem and your idea of reality is not necessarily the same as God’s. According to your reality as the world grows more heretic, apostate, and sinful, we (Christ’s Church) just need to modify our “policies” to be in line with the world?

I do not want to live in your reality or world, thank you.

Eddie Mac
Amen.

In a world where Abortion Pride is making headway, shall I conform myself to that, or to God?
 
**DIFFERENCES AMONG CATHOLICS AND AMONG PROTESTANTS
Code:
 I find that we're getting away from the theme of this thread, though maybe not. The basic issue in most of these discussions is how we view authority of the Church and the Scriptures.

 Take Protestants first. They are splintered in many directions. The fasting growing group seem to be the evangelicals who in certain respects resemble traditional Catholics. They accept the Bible as absolute authority (though they often disagree as to what the Bible means). The Protestants who used to be dominant, mainline Protestants, have lost ground, though they still exert considerable influence because they control such leading seminaries as Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Duke, etc. 

  These Protestants do not insist on conformity, and even welcome different opinions. Their unifying factor is their reverence for Christ and his basic teachings. Usually they have little time for end-time emphasis, Bible prophecy. and such. Many of them doubt or even reject parts of the Bible. For example, the story of Adam and Eve is viewed as myth but with a spiritual message. They also abhor some of the Old Testament stories that seem to glorify genocide aimed at enemies of ancient Israel. What is often overlooked is that such major Protestant denominations as, say, the Methodists have both camps, viewpoints, within their membership, and in thousands of their churches (there are about 35,000 United Methodist churches in the USA and roughly 10,000 additional Methodist churches) liberal and conservative live together comfortably. Why? The ministers don't emphasis doctrine but focus instead on Christian living.

 Now, as for Catholicism, despite its apparent unity, I find that there is a sharp division between the traditionalists, who focus considerable attention upon the authority of the Papacy, and most lay Catholics who - let's face it - are cafeteria Catholics. They have an attachment to the Church, often for family reasons, but millions of them differ little from mainline Protestants. The majority - polls have shown - don't accept such a fundamental teaching as transubstantiation. And we could go on and on. A recent study in Connecticut found that it had once been 50% Catholic. Now that % is 38%. Fallen away Catholics.

  There is a curious contradiction taking place. While mainline Protestantism has attracted many Catholics, so have the evangelical churches. I'm curious as to what the appeal is. Need for authority? Enthusiastic worship? Mission emphasis of the evangelicals? Maybe some other factors. I was chatting with a member of a major evangelical congregation nearby recentlym a former Catholic, and he said with a smile: "Such a high percentage of our members are ex-Catholic that we joke about it."**
 
Roy, to be honest, you have made a lot of heretical statements against the church. Your views are in contrast to the authority of the church. Now you might think that you have a brain to use and that you can fully understand exactly what you need to know about your faith and that you must be right because you are using your brain and reason. Notice how many “you’s” are in that sentence.

Jesus specifically said in many cases that all people should think of themselves as less, not more. That people should be servants of others. To be humble is a difficult thing, especially in this day and age. It also does not matter how many Catholics fall. I know that may sound harsh, but it is the truth. Even when the nation of Israel had fallen and when its people were taken into captivity, only a remnant remained, a very small remnant. I expect that only a remnant of Catholics will remain as well.

This is not to say that you aren’t intelligent, you seem to be. You speak eloquently and seem to have a good deal of knowledge. Sort of like the Pharisees who also were intelligent, educated men but we all know what Jesus thought about them. The problem with the USA and USA Catholics is that the United States is for the most part is a Protestant country with Protestant ideals. I am an American as well, but I have been living outside of my country for years now and it has really opened my eyes. I see the kind of ideas portrayed in movies, on the news, on the internet. I see the silver tongued devils as they whisper in people’s ears hoping to sway their minds and lead them to damnation. Of course I am speaking metaphorically in that sentence but it is basically the truth. It is very easy for a Catholic in the US to lose their way. Things like country, wealth, status, friendships, relationships, etc pull them away from their faith. It is true that we are meant to love our neighbors but when we do not even know ourselves how can we love others?

Most people do not know their own faith. The fact that they think they can determine what is the Universal Truth by their own reasoning is pride. I can see the pride seething from your posts. It consumes and eats away at your soul (again metaphorically speaking) The things that Jesus, and the Church always profess is the right way to live your life is to live life simply. Not just in what we have, but in mind as well. Better that you were ignorant, better that you were blind, better that you were deaf, for then you would not be led astray by reason and knowledge, for then you would not be led astray by what you see, hear or touch for it would go better for you and all of us on judgment day the less we know, not the more.

You espouse your knowledge as if it were the pinnacle of theological understanding. You, who must know more, then the 2000 years of Sacred tradition, millions of apologists, of better men then you or I. Sure, the history of the Church has its black spots because that is the exact picture of our humanity. The Church represents the greatest and the worst of what we are, of what our humanity is. The authority of the Church is meant to be respected. This does not mean that we should not think for ourselves, this means that we should use all that we have in us to try to understand the truth as it is taught by the Church because the Church is led by the Holy Spirit, by God. To deny the authority of the Church is to deny God. That does not mean you should focus on the bad that the Church has been, but on the teachings, on the truth. It matters not who falls for that is left for God to decide and not us, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
DIFFERENCES AMONG CATHOLICS AND AMONG PROTESTANTS
Code:
 I find that we're getting away from the theme of this thread, though maybe not. The basic issue in most of these discussions is how we view authority of the Church and the Scriptures.

 Take Protestants first. They are splintered in many directions. The fasting growing group seem to be the evangelicals who in certain respects resemble traditional Catholics. They accept the Bible as absolute authority (though they often disagree as to what the Bible means). The Protestants who used to be dominant, mainline Protestants, have lost ground, though they still exert considerable influence because they control such leading seminaries as Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Duke, etc. 

  These Protestants do not insist on conformity, and even welcome different opinions. Their unifying factor is their reverence for Christ and his basic teachings. Usually they have little time for end-time emphasis, Bible prophecy. and such. Many of them doubt or even reject parts of the Bible. For example, the story of Adam and Eve is viewed as myth but with a spiritual message. They also abhor some of the Old Testament stories that seem to glorify genocide aimed at enemies of ancient Israel. What is often overlooked is that such major Protestant denominations as, say, the Methodists have both camps, viewpoints, within their membership, and in thousands of their churches (there are about 35,000 United Methodist churches in the USA and roughly 10,000 additional Methodist churches) liberal and conservative live together comfortably. Why? The ministers don't emphasis doctrine but focus instead on Christian living.

 Now, as for Catholicism, despite its apparent unity, I find that there is a sharp division between the traditionalists, who focus considerable attention upon the authority of the Papacy, and most lay Catholics who - let's face it - are cafeteria Catholics. They have an attachment to the Church, often for family reasons, but millions of them differ little from mainline Protestants. The majority - polls have shown - don't accept such a fundamental teaching as transubstantiation. And we could go on and on. A recent study in Connecticut found that it had once been 50% Catholic. Now that % is 38%. Fallen away Catholics.

  There is a curious contradiction taking place. While mainline Protestantism has attracted many Catholics, so have the evangelical churches. I'm curious as to what the appeal is. Need for authority? Enthusiastic worship? Mission emphasis of the evangelicals? Maybe some other factors. I was chatting with a member of a major evangelical congregation nearby recentlym a former Catholic, and he said with a smile: "Such a high percentage of our members are ex-Catholic that we joke about it."
Roy, you start out with the statement that this thread is about the authority of the Church and of scriptures and then you allow yourself to meander from that point. Catholics believe that scriptures get their authority from the Catholic Church, which was responsible for both writing the New Testament (the letters and gospels are the Church’s teaching tools) and for choosing the Canon.

Catholics are united in their beliefs. Some have regrettably fallen away, just as they do in every group , religious or not. At the same time, the US has 200,000 adult conversions into Catholicism each year and the Catholic church has maintained a consistent 25% of the US poulation for well over 100 years. Because the Catholic church is so large versus any other religious Body in the US, it is not surporsing that more converts to your church are Catholics than anything else. I’m sure if you looked at the converts from your church, you would find the biggest block of them have become catholic. The odds just favor that.
 
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