Jesus had siblings?

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DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?
Code: 
 Two or three brief points.

 (1) Matt. 1:25 clearly suggests that Joseph and Mary were united in physical union as husband and wife after Jesus was born.

 (2) The several references to the brothers of Jesus needs to be weighed.

 (3) But, really now, why is it so important that Mary remained a virgin? One of the beautiful aspects of happy married life is expressing love through sexual relations. To make a hard-bound dogma out of Mary's perpetual virginity, as though this were essential, strikes me as demeaning sexual love, an important part of marriage. Not to engage in sex in marriage seems abnormal and certainly not to be recommended. 

  (4) Oh, and by the way, where is Biblical evidence that St. Anne was the mother of Mary? I keep looking for that. Some people, of course, confuse the Virgin Birth (which millions of Protestants profess) and the Immaculate Conception, declared a dogma by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
 
SHW said:
Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich saw in her visions that James the Greater and John (Sons of Thunder) are the sons of Mary Salome and Zebedee. Mary Salome is St. Anne’s older sister. St. Anne is the Blessed Virgin’s mother.

St. Anne’s eldest daughter, Mary Heli, is sister to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Mary Heli was married three times in all:

Mary Heli when married to 1st husband Alpheus became the mother of Simon (not Peter the Rock), James the Less, and Thaddeus. She is also stepmother to Matthew the Tax Collector, the son of Alpheus from his first marriage. Joses Barsabas is the child of her 2nd marriage with Sabas. From her 3rd marriage with Cleophas she had a son who was named Simeon of Jerusalem. (Men must not have lived very long in those days.)

Simon, James the Less, Thaddeus, Joses Barsabas, and Simeon of Jerusalem are **
Jesus’** first cousins. Matthew is a step-first cousin, if there is such a thing. 🙂

I

James the Greater and John are first cousins to the Blessed Virgin.

Joseph was a virgin his whole life according to Bl. A.C.E. Joseph was the third of six brothers. He was quite a bit older than Mary. Mary was a Temple virgin.

Of course, this is private revelation, so one may believe what one wills.

Pax,
SHW
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I wonder if any of you have read a book called Mystical City Of God.This is a book written by Venerable Mary Of Agreda a Nun who was also a visionary.Sister Agreda claims that Our Lady appeared to her in a series of Visions and related her life story.This is an interesting book and very comprehensive.Here too she states that Our lady lived with St John after the death and resurrection of our Lord.The book is available online and can be searched under “Mystical City Of God by Mary of Agreda”
 
Roy5 said:
DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?
Code: 
 Two or three brief points.

 (1) Matt. 1:25 clearly suggests that Joseph and Mary were united in physical union as husband and wife after Jesus was born.

 (2) The several references to the brothers of Jesus needs to be weighed.

 (3) But, really now, why is it so important that Mary remained a virgin? One of the beautiful aspects of happy married life is expressing love through sexual relations. To make a hard-bound dogma out of Mary's perpetual virginity, as though this were essential, strikes me as demeaning sexual love, an important part of marriage. Not to engage in sex in marriage seems abnormal and certainly not to be recommended. 

  (4) Oh, and by the way, where is Biblical evidence that St. Anne was the mother of Mary? I keep looking for that. Some people, of course, confuse the Virgin Birth (which millions of Protestants profess) and the Immaculate Conception, declared a dogma by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
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Partly because Mary is often refered to as the Ark of the New Covenant. Once she concieved Jesus through the Holy Spirit, it would have been sacrilege for anyone, including Joseph, to have relations with her, just like when anyone touched the Ark they would die. A good book for you to read called Hail Holy Queen by Dr. Scott Hahn (a former Protestant) is an excellent resource. Here’s a great link you should look at as well.
catholic-pages.com/bvm/hahn.asp
 
Irish_Kathy said:
That is another WONDERFUL idea. It also makes perfect sense, especially if Mary was a widow at the time. 👍 I never thought of that before.

My other alternative idea is that perhaps Mary and Joseph adopted some other children after Jesus was born.
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While these are interesting ideas, I am not aware of any ancient tradition supporting them. I don’t think any newly suggested idea, however well it it may fit the known facts, can be given as much weight as ancient opinion, some of which reportedly comes from the time if the Church Fathers.
 
Leopard said:
While these are interesting ideas, I am not aware of any ancient tradition supporting them. I don’t think any newly suggested idea, however well it it may fit the known facts, can be given as much weight as ancient opinion, some of which reportedly comes from the time if the Church Fathers.
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You are right abut that Leopard. All I was trying to suggest is that there are explainations that can explain both concepts of Mary and Joseph having other children and also Mary also remaining a perpetual virgin.
 
Oh, indeed, it does make a great deal of difference. Simply stated, one is truth and one is not. So what clues do we have? One of the most important is 2000 years of Tradition (capital T). Not everything was written down. As John the Evangelist said, all the books of the world could not have contained everything about Jesus. So we rely as well on Tradition, which does NOT contradict Scripture, but provides additional detail in some areas.
  1. When the Gospel of Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary UNTIL she bore a son, it does not mean that he “knew” her then, anymore than saying that some nun was a virgin UNTIL her death means that she was not a virgin after her death. The Greek word used in the Gospel is “heos” which doesn’t necessarily mean something occurred after that time. It has much more interpretation than “until” in English.
  2. The references to brothers of Jesus is adelphos, exactly the same word, used over 300 times in the NT, to refer to brethren, even up to 3000 on Pentecost. The word adelphos has many meanings, but it seems that only after the Protestant Rebellion/Reformation was there an attempt to make it apply as if Mary had other children. It can mean brother like Andrew and Peter and James and John, but who is to decide when it means a brother (same parents) vs brethren? Only a teaching authority given by Christ; i.e. the Magisterium of the Church He founded.
  3. By the arguments of #3, Paul’s exhortation to celibacy might be questioned as well. Yet, he doesn’t condemn marriage. One might turn the question around and ask why it seems so important to so many people that Mary and Joseph had a sex life? All kinds of good things are given up to the glory of God, such as in vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Self control, and offering a sacrifice to God is not abnormal, except perhaps in this secular, sex-at-any-cost society we live in. More to the point, consider that Mary was the chosen vessel to carry Christ, just as the Ark of the Covenant was a Sacred Vessel. And we know what happened to Uzza when, apparently in good faith, he touched it. For two such holy people as Joseph and Mary, wouldn’t one assume they had a sense of the sacred, of what is dedicated and consecrated to God, so that Joseph would not have touched what already belonged completely to God. It would be like drinking coffee out of a sacred chalice…nothing wrong with coffee, but…what a sacrilege!
  4. Good question about Anne and Joachim as Mary’s parents. Again, it is tradition although I’m not personally aware (haven’t researched it) of the various early sources, but I think the Gospel of James has much on Mary’s early life. We don’t consider that Gospel as inspired, and it is not in the canon of Sacred Scripture. But just because the Catholic Church didn’t include the Gospel of James in Sacred Scripture, it doesn’t make every single thing in it wrong. So it is interesting to read, but is not revered as Sacred Scripture. (Nor are many other writings of the time like Josephus, which provides interesting supplementary detail.)
What is interesting about Popes’ declaring dogma is that they don’t declare dogma until what is already established as doctrine becomes challenged. Then the necessity arises to make clear what we believe. I agree that many Protestants do confuse the Virgin Birth with the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception is that Mary was born pure from any stain of original sin, a perfect vessel to carry the Son of God, with no concupiscence or tendency to sin as the rest of us experience. Why should not God have made a perfectly pure vessel to carry His Son? It would seem strange if He had not. Wouldn’t any of us have wanted to keep our own mothers out of the clutches of evil? Christ had the power to do just that…

Somehow, the importance of the Queen Mother seems to be lost in our modern history. Look at the role Bathsheba played to Solomon. It wasn’t his wives but his mother who interceded to Solomon. We don’t worship Mary or adore her, but we certainly do ask for her prayer and intercession for us “Pray for us now and at the hour of our death. Amen.”

Well, that’s my (name removed by moderator)ut. Anyone else want to weigh in? Hopefull.

**
Roy5 said:
DOES IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE?
Code: 
 Two or three brief points.

 (1) Matt. 1:25 clearly suggests that Joseph and Mary were united in physical union as husband and wife after Jesus was born.

 (2) The several references to the brothers of Jesus needs to be weighed.

 (3) But, really now, why is it so important that Mary remained a virgin? One of the beautiful aspects of happy married life is expressing love through sexual relations. To make a hard-bound dogma out of Mary's perpetual virginity, as though this were essential, strikes me as demeaning sexual love, an important part of marriage. Not to engage in sex in marriage seems abnormal and certainly not to be recommended. 

  (4) Oh, and by the way, where is Biblical evidence that St. Anne was the mother of Mary? I keep looking for that. Some people, of course, confuse the Virgin Birth (which millions of Protestants profess) and the Immaculate Conception, declared a dogma by Pope Pius IX in 1854.
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In fact, some of the motivation behind the persecutions of early Christians was because of their frequent use of “brothers and sisters” in describing their community. They were accused of being an incestuous cult that performed cannibalistic rituals like “eating the flesh,” ie “Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you.”
 
We all understand the use of the word “brethren” in their language and culture. But, to answer some of the other questions:

Actually, BOTH Mary and Joseph are perpetual virgins,

and five of the Apostles are Jesus’s first and second cousins on Joseph’s side of the family, not by blood.

Joseph was 30 and Mary was 14 when they were engaged, he was 60 and Jesus was 30 when he died. March 19 is his feastday, to commemorate his death, and now another feastday on May 1, Saint Joseph, the Patron of Workers, to commemorate his life as a humble worker, a carpenter.

Mary is an only child.

This is according to the textbook we studied in Catechism when I was a child, “The Holy Family - Jesus, Mary and Joseph”. Copyright 1963, by Saint Benedict Center, by The Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Still River, MA. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 63-22475. This has been a RECENT great find from my youth, a FASCINATING read, and I have enjoyed reading the passages, which I will quote for you:

From Page 57:

“Saint Joseph preserved his virginity through his whole life. He made a vow of virginity when he was twelve years old.”

From Page 59:

“The marriage of Joseph and Mary, though a virginal marriage, was a true one …”

“The marriage of Joseph and Mary was especially arranged by God for the sake of receiving and bringing up the Child God. It is the most beautifully arranged marriage in the history of the world.”

“The virginity of Mary was due not only to her own vow of dedication but also to Saint Joseph’s vow of protection.”

“Joseph was the one man in the whole world the Blessed Virgin, the Mother of God, could absolutely trust to be both her spouse and the protector of her virginity. Joseph and Mary were true spouses, not by the flesh but by a union of souls.”

From Page 61:

“Joseph was the husband predestined for Mary from all eternity. God chose to be the guardian of His virginal Mother the most chaste spouse that could be found in the whole world. Was there ever in the history of this world a love more trusting than that of Mary for Joseph, when, even though she had made a vow of perpetual virginity, she was still willing to give him her heart? Joseph had also made a vow of virginity and was as generous as Mary was, in giving her his heart. Joseph was virginal in order that from a virginal marriage a virginal Son might be born.”

All of these references regarding the virginity of Mary and Joseph are some of the MOST BEAUTIFUL TEXT I have ever read. Aren’t they, though? All men and women should strive to be chaste, with them as our most admirable examples, unless in a married state (none of us are the parents of the Christ).

From Page 70:

"Three wonderful grandparents, children and grandchildren are remembered among the holy families of the saints. These are, first and most notably, Saint Cleophas and Saint Mary of Cleophas. They were the father and mother of three of the Apostles: Saint Simon, Saint James the Less and Saint Jude. Saint Cleophas was also the brother of Saint Joseph. Saint Cleophas and Saint Mary of Cleophas were the uncle and aunt of Our Lord.

Saint Cleophas and Saint Mary of Cleophas had another son who was a saint, Saint Joseph Barsabas. And then there was their most beautiful daughter, Saint Mary Salome, who, though she did not marry a saint, had two great sons who were both saints and Apostles. These were Saint James the Greater and Saint John the Evangelist, the Beloved Disciple, Our Lady’s priest."

From Page 53:

“January 23, the Solemn Espousals of Our Lady and Saint Joseph, 1 B.C. Saint Joseph was thirty years old and Mary was fourteen years, four months and fifteen days old when this occurred. Their first espousals, their engagement, took place on the previous September 8, Our Lady’s birthday.”

From Page 54:

"March 19, Saint Joseph, 29 A.D. … “died when he was sixty years old in the year 29”.

From Page 28:

" … it was in the town of Nazareth that the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, was conceived. She was the only child of a beautiful couple named Joachim and Anne. For twenty years they had prayed for a child. They were almost ready to give up when Mary was conceived. This was in the year 17 B.C. on December 8."

I hope you enjoyed this as much as I have!

Love to you All,

:love:
 
Because they were the only couple predestined and entrusted with bringing up the Christ, the Son of God, and it was their entire focus, always, while on Earth. Hence “The Holy Family”.

Per the text in my previous post, “Joseph was virginal in order that from a virginal marrage a virginal Son might be born”.

They had a sacred mission given only unto them. The rest of us are not expected to bring up the Christ.

The rest of us are called to procreation in the normal manner, and a blessed, loving, conjugal union is necessary for that. Lovemaking in a Catholic (all others, as well) marriage is seen as a blessing of the marriage, restricted to only the partners in the marriage.

Clearly the text in my previous post didn’t hint in any way that Mary and Joseph loved each other any less than any of our marriages; in fact, because of its uniqueness and their most unique roles in the history of mankind, you can only imagine how much they truly loved each other, clung to each other, and traveled that journey together until Joseph died in the arms of the Son of God, judged by the Man he raised, and Mary, his spouse, also the Queen of Heaven?

It was simply the roles of Jesus, Mary and Joseph to be “The Holy Family”. To quote further from the textbook, Page 61:

"Saint Joseph was part of the arrangement of the eternal decree of the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. God became man because of His love of Mary the Virgin, but could not have become man unless the Virgin was perpetually guarded and wedded and loved and venerated by such a husband as Joseph. No wonder God calls him, “a just man.” "

From Page 64:

"Saint Joseph was made in the image of the Blessed Virgin Mary, his spouse. Joseph loved Mary with the purest and most consecrated love ever given her by any human being. Next to Mary, no one in the whole history of creation ever loved Jesus as Joseph did.

No saint in Heaven is greater than Saint Joseph except the Blessed Virgin. Saint Joseph must be honored with a special cult. It is not the cult of latria which alone can be given to God. Nor is it the cult of hyperdulia, which is given alone to the Blessed Virgin. But it is, and should be called, the cult of protodulia, being the first and highest of all the cults given to any of the saints. The cult we give to the saints is called dulia."

Pretty heady stuff. Are you beginning to see now how very special this marriage and family is, and each of their roles in it? Jesus’s brethren are those of all of creation, not of a day-to-day life. It is a much bigger thing for which the “The Holy Family” was created. Now I hope you understand!

Love,

:hug3:
 
antonabe said:
I wonder if any of you have read a book called Mystical City Of God.This is a book written by Venerable Mary Of Agreda a Nun who was also a visionary.Sister Agreda claims that Our Lady appeared to her in a series of Visions and related her life story.This is an interesting book and very comprehensive.Here too she states that Our lady lived with St John after the death and resurrection of our Lord.The book is available online and can be searched under “Mystical City Of God by Mary of Agreda”
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Yes, I did have that wonderful book at one time but I donated it to our Church library at that time so that more people could enjoy it. I have since moved away from that city. I’d like to buy another copy for myself when it will fit into my budget. She did say that Mary went to live with St. John and this agrees with Scripture.

John 19:25-27 “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.”

If you’d like to read another book by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich for free, here is a link to it Dolorous Passion of Our Lord.. This is the book that Mel Gibson used for “The Passion of the Christ” movie. I also donated my copy of this book to the Church library so I was thrilled to find it online.

Pax,
SHW
 
I think that St. Joseph’s children from his previous marriage is the best explanation. I also think that the scripture passages that refer to Jesus’ “brothers” and even “sisters” is a separate issue all together from our Blessed Mother’s perpetual virginity. .

The way God placed St. Joseph in the care of Jesus and Blessed Mary is a precious story of His love for us. And God’s way of placing St. Joseph’s children with Jesus and Blessed Mary is a way of showing how He will always care for us. It was all about God showing us the meaning of family.

Just my thoughts.

May we always know we are loved!

Thanks God!
 
Magnus467 said:
Also, any relatives of Jesus cousins…etc would have been referred to as brothers a tribal society. If I am correct, there was no word in their language for nephew, cousin…only brother, father, and son (and their female counterparts).
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But Greek, which the Gospels were written in, does have a word for cousin. anepsios. And Elizabeth is described as Mary’s relative, not her sister.

I’ve never understood why it would be so horrible that Mary should have actually been a wife to Joseph.
 
Mary made a vow to chastity for her life, do you honestly believe that someone who is deemed humble, and obedient would be willing to give up that vow so easily? She would never have married if she hadn’t gotten pregnant with Jesus and would have faced shame if Joseph had not become her husband. It makes perfect sense that she would not have sexual relations.
 
Probably one of the most telling proofs that Jesus had no siblings occured on the way to Carvary. Remember Jesus saying to John, “Behold your mother”, and to Mary “Behold your son”.

We know the parents of John, so he wasn’t Mary’s son. In the customs at the time it would have been inconceivable for Jesus to give his mother into the care of anyone other than her own child. It just wasn’t done! Obviously Jesus was her only son!
 
**The question of siblings of Jesus, is served anew over and over again. The reason behind: Spreading doubts. Unwittingly so in cooperation with hell; as one and only aim of hell is: Make heaven unbelievable.

Everyone who knows at least fragmentarily about the New Testament, knows that Jesus called all “His brothers”, who followed Him and His word. Jesus himself said so in Mt 12,48 - Mt 12,49 - Mk 3,34.
And in Lk 8,21 He said:
Brothers of mine are all those, who hear God’s word and put it into practice.

How on earth could any thinking person get the idea, that Holy Mary, who was chosen by God; given the grace of God to serve as Theotocos in God’s incredible grace, giving birth to Jesus (who is God) – ever would have the idea to have other children.
Absolutely inconceivable to any Christian!

Thinkable only to those, who consider Holy Mary simply as one of any woman.
This she was not and she is not.

Holy Mary was honoured by God Himself. How could we dare not to revere and admire her. How could anyone imagine Holy Mary could possibly have another child after Jesus.

Do those who imagine Holy Mary might have had other Children, have the slighttest idea to what it means being “Mother of God”?!
There is no room for any other idea.

Those who do not understand this, will never understand, any further explanations would be in vain.

To those who deny all reason:
In Hebrew, Aramaic, Greece, “brothers” are all distant relatives. Match e.g. Genesis 13,8 - 14,14 - 24,48 and many others.
**
 
PERPETUAL VIRGINITY NOT NECESSARY
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 This notion that there is something more 'pure' about perpetual virginity than a physical union in marriage has been at the root of so much confusion and damage over the centuries. Actually, the first commandment of God in the scriptures was to 'be fruitful and multiply'. I for one - and millions, indeed billions like me - consider the bearing of children a great blessing and that comes through sexual intimacy. Why do so many Christians, including some Protestants, seem to rate virginity higher than faithful motherhood within the marital relationship? I note, for example, that most of the women saints are described as virgins. Such an unhealthy attituide!

  I would think no less of Mary, nor should anyone, if she and Joseph had sexual relations. Actually, that is generally viewed as one of the joys as well as one of the duties of marriage. If the husband or wife consistently refuse, that is grounds for annulment of any marriage. 

  Okay, now as to the Immaculate Conception. That is tied in with the sad notion of original sin. Frankly, I have trouble with that idea. You mean God - our just and merciful God - would bestow upon the unborn the burden of a sin already? Give me a break! That certainly is guilty until proven innocent. An indecent and false premise. Just because many of the Church Fathers taught such stuff doesn't make it so. Jesus, as I recall, took a child and said to his hearers: Unless you become like one of these little ones, you in no wise will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. 

  Sorry, but that's how I see things. Keep smiling. And a happy day-after-St. Patrick's-Day!
 
**Sorry, but you did not understand a thing.
Why don’t you rather talk about something else you have a clou about…
“How you see things” is of no relevance to the Holy Scriptures.

Try to understand Luke 1,26 to 50**
 
MarieCB said:
But Greek, which the Gospels were written in, does have a word for cousin. anepsios. And Elizabeth is described as Mary’s relative, not her sister.

I’ve never understood why it would be so horrible that Mary should have actually been a wife to Joseph.
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Would you please tell us what verse contains anepsios? Also is that Koine Greek in which the gospels were written? The word “syggenes” does occur with respect to Elizabeth, but that is translated as kin, a blood relative. Thanks.

Why would it have been so “horrible?” Because Mary would have been breaking her vow to God of perpetual virginity. Hardly sounds like someone God would have picked to be His Mother. Others have written in more and better detail above, and the arguments are strong and persuasive…those keeping up the “argument” haven’t answered any of the points in what was already written, just put forth their own advocacy of sex. Even Christ said there is no marriage in heaven; so sex isn’t the highest good – in or out of marriage. Worship of God is – and that is what Mary was doing. Why do so many who try to destroy Mary’s virginity feel the need to bring her down to a level below which God created her? SOmetimes I think folks are actually jealous of her.

As to original sin, Christ spoke of the need to be born again. Anyone reading Genesis knows that the sin of Adam and Eve was to remain with all their offspring (we are not each born individually back in the Garden of Eden until we sin.) The savior was promised to Adam and Eve right after their “original” sin, not after they’d committed many sins… and for all people in all times. At the root of secularism today is the ego that I’m not a sinner; I don’t need God; sex is the ultimate ‘god’…none of that is consistent with Scripture or Sacred Tradition. It just shows how increasingly difficult it is for hardened hearts to bend the knee to the sacred, to mix metaphors…I don’t think most of us understand how awful sin – any sin – really is.
 
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