Jesus had siblings?

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Yes, it’s an early and important document. But it’s not Scripture, and that’s for a reason. You can interpret how you want to, but its claims are not binding on Catholic faith.

Cheers
Nor did I claim otherwise. However, as an important historical document, the Protoevangelium gives us insight into what the early Church believed.

There’s simply no getting around the fact that the earliest Christians held that Mary remained a virgin all of her life.

Now, here is the important point for you personally: you are obliged to accept all of the dogmas of the Church and one of these concerns the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.

The Perpetual Virginity (AD 553)

The dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary defines that Mary was always a virgin, even after giving birth to Christ-in fact, Christ’s birth sanctified his mother’s virginity.

The Second Council of Constantinople stated in the Fourteen Anathemas:
2. If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:
 
Nor did I claim otherwise. However, as an important historical document, the Protoevangelium gives us insight into what the early Church believed.
Ummm…maybe…but not exactly. It gives us insight into what SOME believed, but given that we don’t know who wrote it or when it’s really hard to claim that “the early church” universally believed it. Just how “historical” it may be is open to debate (our concept of history is very different from ancient writers). If it’s written as early as you claim and if it was what the whole church believed then I’d think it would have been included in Scripture. Maybe or maybe not. Oh well.
There’s simply no getting around the fact that the earliest Christians held that Mary remained a virgin all of her life.
Do you have any evidence to support that claim apart from the Protevangelium of James? Just curious.

I agree that the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity was a long held belief. I am not doubting or questioning its truth. I just don’t think the historical and Scriptural evidence is as objectively probative of it as many would like.
Now, here is the important point for you personally: you are obliged to accept all of the dogmas of the Church and one of these concerns the Perpetual Virginity of Mary.
Um, ok, yeah, of course…I am a Catholic and I accept all teachings of the Church. Not sure why you felt compelled to ask that, but no problem.

Cheers
 
The Third Apostle James?

In order to allege that the Apostle James, “brother” of Jesus
was a Son of Mary, you have to invent a shadowy third Apostle
called James. Is this credible?

James “Brother of Jesus” is referred to as one of the
APOSTLES by Paul in Galatians 1.9. Yet we know from
Matthew 10:2-4 that neither of the Apostles named James was
actually a Son of the Virgin Mary! One of the Apostles James,
is however, the Son of ALPHAEUS, who most bible scholars
agree is the same person as Clopas - already identified as
Father of James and Joseph.

So if James “brother of Jesus” was an Apostle, he cannot have
been a son of Mary.

One can argue that a **third ** James, supposed blood
brother of Jesus, was elevated to the Apostleship at some time
after the resurrection. However this presents a number of
difficulties.
a) Why is this “third James” **never ** mentioned in the
gospel accounts?
b) Why would the Apostles take a non-apostle as their leader
in Jerusalem?
c) Why is the 3rd James’s elevation to Apostle not mentioned
in scripture?
d) Why did Jesus give Mary as Mother to John, if this “third
James” existed?
e) What happened to the “second” James, son of Alphaeus
after the resurrection? If we imagine a “third James”, then
James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus disappears from history
mysteriously at exactly the same time the supposed “third
James”, just as mysteriously appears.

Is it not obvious that James the Apostle, son of Alphaeus is James the Apostle, Cousin of Jesus, who is the Apostle and “brother of the Lord” of the early
church in Jerusalem?
The “Third James” hypothesis simply doesn’t hold water.
 
Ummm…maybe…but not exactly. It gives us insight into what SOME believed, but given that we don’t know who wrote it or when it’s really hard to claim that “the early church” universally believed it. Just how “historical” it may be is open to debate (our concept of history is very different from ancient writers). If it’s written as early as you claim and if it was what the whole church believed then I’d think it would have been included in Scripture. Maybe or maybe not. Oh well.
Dude, no one disputes the historical accuracy of Josephus and that is not inspired. Something can be completely true that is not inspired.
Do you have any evidence to support that claim apart from the Protevangelium of James? Just curious.
Sure. Here are a dozen or so quotes all taken from the first five centuries of Church history. Can you produce anything like this proving that the Church believed Mary had sex with Joseph and produced other children???

Origen

“The Book [the Proto-evangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the firstfruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the firstfruit of virginity” (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers

“If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, ‘Woman, behold your son,’ and to John, ‘Behold your mother’ [John 19:26–27), as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate” (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius

“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin
Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

**Epiphanius **

“We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit” (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

“And to holy Mary, [the title] ‘Virgin’ is invariably added, for that holy woman remains undefiled” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 78:6 [A.D. 375]).

Jerome

“[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man” (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

“We believe that God was born of a virgin, because we read it. We do not believe that Mary was married after she brought forth her Son, because we do not read it. . . . You [Helvidius] say that Mary did not remain a virgin. As for myself, I claim that Joseph himself was a virgin, through Mary, so that a virgin Son might be born of a virginal wedlock” (ibid., 21).

(cont.)
 
**Didymus the Blind **

“It helps us to understand the terms ‘first-born’ and ‘only-begotten’ when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin ‘until she brought forth her first-born son’ [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin” (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

**Ambrose **

“Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of material virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the Virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son” (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388]).

**Pope Siricius I **

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

**Augustine **

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

**Leporius **

“We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary” (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

**Cyril of Alexandria **

“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
 
The Gospel of James? Well, I guess that explains some things.
Such as?
  1. Good question about Anne and Joachim as Mary’s parents. Again, it is tradition although I’m not personally aware (haven’t researched it) of the various early sources, but I think the Gospel of James has much on Mary’s early life. We don’t consider that Gospel as inspired, and it is not in the canon of Sacred Scripture. But just because the Catholic Church didn’t include the Gospel of James in Sacred Scripture, it doesn’t make every single thing in it wrong. So it is interesting to read, but is not revered as Sacred Scripture. (Nor are many other writings of the time like Josephus, which provides interesting supplementary detail.)
The post clearly distinguishes between inspired scripture and the non-canonical Gospel of James. However, just because the book is not inspired, we should not conclude that it is historically inaccurate.

You see, the weight of history, the evidence, is against Mary having sex with Joseph and producing other children.

You have nothing but your own incredulity (read disbelief) to offer in response.
 
Dude, no one disputes the historical accuracy of Josephus and that is not inspired. Something can be completely true that is not inspired.
Randy, thanks so much! Your posts are great. Wow, what a wonderful source of info. Yes, I recognize that something being true is distinct from it being scriptural or inspired.

I guess my concern was those who might rely on ONLY the Protevangelium of James to “defend” the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

To those people, I would say, simply, look at the sources you provide.

Thanks again.

Cheers
 
Randy, thanks so much! Your posts are great. Wow, what a wonderful source of info. Yes, I recognize that something being true is distinct from it being scriptural or inspired.

I guess my concern was those who might rely on ONLY the Protevangelium of James to “defend” the teaching of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

To those people, I would say, simply, look at the sources you provide.

Thanks again.

Cheers
The Protoevangelium is useful for demonstrating the antiquity of the doctrine.

The certainty that we have in accepting it comes from our faith that an infallible Church has declared it to be so.

Not useful for discussions with non-Catholics, of course.

Best wishes.
 
Well, from what I’ve read on Jewish sites, Paul had to have been married because he was a rabbi. In order to be a rabbi, and especially if he was a member of the Sanhedrin, Paul had to be have been married. The only reasonable answer is that he was a widower. And considering his not-so-generous thoughts on marriage, I’d guess it hadn’t been a very happy marriage.

As for Jesus, I don’t know. We know nothing about what he did or did not do, other than a brief episode around his bar mitzvah and then a few years when he’s in his 30’s. If he was a rabbi, instead of it being an honorary title, then he certainly had to have been married. In that culture, he wouldn’t have had much credibility as a leader and teacher unless he was/had been married. If he was an Essene, it’s possible that he wasn’t, but he didn’t have the anti-woman attitudes that the Essenes seem to have had, nor was a hermit living in the desert as they were.

We know that his parents were careful to obey the Law of their people - they had Jesus circumcised at 8 days, Mary did the normal purification, they went to Passover in Jerusalem each year, and they brought Jesus once he was old enough - and we know that Jesus was obedient to them. Joseph - or Mary, if Joseph had died - would have had a duty to arrange a marriage when Jesus was about 16.

And, no, I don’t think he was married to Mary of Magdalene. And while I don’t know whether or not he was married, I lean to the side of “definitely maybe”. The fact that no wife is mentioned is not proof that he did not have a wife. That’s a logical fallacy called “argument from ignorance”. Peter was married, yet the only mention is a brief story about his mother-in-law. MOST people, with very few exceptions, were married, but there is little mention of the spouses of Jesus’ followers, male or female.

Not everything Jesus did was recorded. When he began his ministry, was he completely friendless? No friends are mentioned, only his followers.

However, as horrible as the idea seems to be to Catholics, I have no problem with Jesus being married and having children while still remaining sinless and “all God/all man”, just like I have no problem with the idea of Mary actually :eek: having normal marital relations with her husband. Then again, I don’t think, at ALL, that sex is sinful or corrupting or less than holy. If God had no problem ensuring Mary’s virginal pregnancy with the Son of God, I don’t think it would have been a real difficulty ensuring that any offspring of Jesus were completely human. He had cousins and others who were related to him through Mary, so I don’t think it’s so terribly impious to consider that he had siblings or children.

But you know what? That’s my opinion, and my very non-Catholic thoughts, and that’s all. Obviously, a Catholic is going to accept what the Church says.
Actually there was no Law then that required a Rabbit to be married. Rabbinic traditions didn’t start until after the fall of Jerusalem,no temple no priesthood. Rabbis then came to the forefront as they filled in the gap of the absent priesthood. Very influential at the time was the Essene community. They were celibate and practiced a form of baptism to remove sins.So celibacy would not have been as big an issue then as it was at other times.
 
The Protoevangelium is useful for demonstrating the antiquity of the doctrine.

The certainty that we have in accepting it comes from our faith that an infallible Church has declared it to be so.

Not useful for discussions with non-Catholics, of course.

Best wishes.
Just to clarify…you mean the Church declared the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity to be true, right? Not that the Church declared the Protevangelium of James to be true?

Cheers
 
Nobody responded to what I said about Jesus being a possibole uncle.

Look if Jesus did have literal blood relatives and they had children then Jesus would be their uncle.

Are you going to tell me that no one would have taken notice of blood relatives of Jesus Christ?

And say you were one of those nephews ar nieces–are you going to tell me that none of them would have bragged about their uncle being God?!

And are you further going to tell me that no roman authority would have sought out such relatives to kill them and that we would have no knowledge of that?

Jesus is God!

God isn’t blood related to brothers, sister, nieces or nephews.

The only human being that Jesus was ever blood related to was Mary and she wass assumed into Heaven.

Doesn’t that make sense?

No one was able to get a piece of Christ Jesus’ bloodline!\

When can receive his blood at mass.

And doesn’t that make a whole lot more sense?

Course the people that don’t believe in His blood at mass are the same types of people that would believe that He was blood related to other brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews.

Doesn’t that make sense also?

And wouldn’t the devil want people to believe that Mary was not always a virgin and want people not to believe in Jesus’ blood at Mass?
 
Since scripture plainly states that the Church (and not a book) is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15), are Catholics wrong to listen to the Church?

Please provide an example or two of this. Start separate thread, please, to avoid derailing this discussion of the kinsmen of Jesus.

Thanks.
Good Evening, siblings in Christ 🙂 Let’s let God’s authoritative word settle the issue.

Is God Still Speaking Through Men?
“It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.” (Psalm 118:8)

Statement - “God who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the spouse [the church] of His beloved Son” (79).
By way of Tradition, God’s word is transmitted “to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it by their preaching” (81).
“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single deposit of the Word of God” (97).

Contradiction - “God has said everything in His word. In (Christ) He has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending Him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty” (65).
There will be “no new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ” (66).
“God has revealed Himself fully by sending His own Son. The Son is His Father’s definitive word; so there will be no further revelation after Him” (73).
 
Does the catechism of the RCC contradict the Word of God?

God’s Word - “I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).

Can Anyone Interpret Scripture?

Statement - “The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God…has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone” (85).

Contradiction - “Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must through the Holy Spirit, open our minds to understand scriptures” (108).

God’s Word - “And as for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things” (1 John 2:27).

“Now we have received…the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God” (1 Cor. 2:12).
 
I’ve been away for a few days, and you guys have been busy, posting many EXCELLENT POSTS which back up my original post as to the “brethren” who are really Jesus’s cousins on Joseph’s side of the family, not by blood but by marriage, and a few other of my posts. Saint Jerome makes this clear, that they are NOT the children of a first marriage by a widowed Joseph (stepbrothers), but cousins of Jesus, per the following relationships:

The first cousins:

Joseph’s brother, Saint Cleophas, is also known as Clopas, and aka Alphaeus. His wife is Saint Mary of Cleophas. Part of the confusion is that this Mary is referred to at times as the sister of Mary (Jesus’s Mother), when she is actually her sister-in-law. Part of that messy language thing they’ve got going. Both were the wives of brothers, Joseph and Cleophas, hence sisters-in-law.

Their children and Jesus’s first cousins were: Saint Simon (aka Symeon), Saint James the Less, and Saint Jude (not Judas, the traitor), of whom were also among the 12 Apostles. Another brother is Saint Joseph Barsabas (aka Joseph or Joses), but not among the 12 Apostles. James and Joses are often referenced together.

These four brothers have a sister, Saint Mary Salome, also married to Zebedee. Some confusion arises at times when this Mary is also referred to as a sister of Mary, the Mother of Jesus, when actually she is Mary’s niece. Her son, John, is Mary’s great nephew.

Mary, the Mother of Jesus, is an only Child (thank you to Randy Carson, for the entire document, and one other earlier poster, twb1621, for giving just the link, “Protoevangelisum of James”, where this is discussed). She is the daughter of Saint Anne and Saint Joachim, who, because they waited so long for her arrival (20 years, other sources), dedicated her to service in the temple at the age of 3. So, no “sisters” named Mary also, they are relatives in that same loose sense as “brethren”.

The second cousins:

Saint Mary Salome, and her husband, Zebedee, have two sons (also among the 12 Apostles), and second cousins to Our Lord: Saint James the Greater and Saint John the Evangelist, the Beloved Disciple.

These relationships are also made clear in first the link posted, and then the entire article, “Mary, Ever Virgin”, on the Catholic Answers website.

Hope that clears up the confusion of the multiple names for Saint Cleophas, Joseph’s brother, and the two Jameses, and the use of “sister” and the many Marys. Also, this ties back the references given to us by BrianH quoting Eusebius regarding Symeon and Luke and the fact that they were descendants of the House of David, after James, son of Clopas/Cleophas/Alphaeus.

The writings of Saint Jerome further clarify the relationships in the link posting by Monkey1976, and which I think Randy Carson quoted from directly, as well, entitled “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary”. Saint Jerome goes into a lengthy discourse on how confusing are the relationships, not only of the Jameses, but the incorrect use of the word sister relating to the other two Marys. This same document also verifies that Saint Joseph is a virgin as well, but please see my next post, and the next paragraph …

He also goes into the confusion of the use of “bethroved vs. married”, and how even the writers of the gospel used it sloppily, venting his frustration! One can draw from his writings that Joseph and Mary were bethroved, that is, engaged, not yet married. In fact, my earlier posts gave the dates of both events, engagement September 8, also Our Lady’s Birthday, and Solemn Espousals (or Marriage) on January 23, after Jesus’s birth. They were unmarried as they traveled to Bethlehem. But it was such a long journey, it was obvious she would give birth while he was away, so what to do about it? Saint Jerome explains in great detail the “rules for engagement”, if you will, and what happens, and the rules for adultery. Mary’s vow, and Joseph’s, were to remain chaste, or virgins; there was nothing saying they couldn’t ever become engaged or married. (THAT vow would have been celibacy, NOT the one they chose.) They both chose it, together. Which is why they were perfect for the roles of Ever-Virgin Mother and Foster Father in The Holy Family including Jesus. It was their primary and only focus, no other role was needed or wanted. A most holy and unique role, with a much larger scope (for all of humankind) than any of our ordinary marriages, as I explained before.

Further details in the article link posted by FCEGM, “Our Blessed Mother and the Saints, What the Bible Says about Mary’s Virginity”, by Mark Bonocore. This document verifies that Saint Joseph is a virgin as well.

PaulC, as to my source for the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, if you’d like to further research their writings, their website is: www.catholicism.org.

Hope this helps! And thank you, all, for your backup materials quoting Scripture.

👍
 
Just to clarify…you mean the Church declared the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity to be true, right? Not that the Church declared the Protevangelium of James to be true?

Cheers
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is dogma. The Protoevangelium of James may or may not be true. It is certainly not inspired scripture.
 
The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is dogma. The Protoevangelium of James may or may not be true. It is certainly not inspired scripture.
Thanks. That’s what I assumed you meant, just wanted to make sure.

Cheers
 
Good Evening, siblings in Christ 🙂 Let’s let God’s authoritative word settle the issue.

Is God Still Speaking Through Men?
“It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man.” (Psalm 118:8)

Statement - “God who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the spouse [the church] of His beloved Son” (79).
By way of Tradition, God’s word is transmitted “to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it by their preaching” (81).
“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single deposit of the Word of God” (97).

Contradiction - “God has said everything in His word. In (Christ) He has said everything; there will be no other word than this one. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending Him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty” (65).
There will be “no new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ” (66).
“God has revealed Himself fully by sending His own Son. The Son is His Father’s definitive word; so there will be no further revelation after Him” (73).
What is the contradiction?
 
Ok, then, I’ll respond. Jesus could have been an uncle.

Cheers
If Mary had brothers and sisters who had children?

Is there any record of this in history?

In fact, isn’t it thought that Mary was an only child?
 
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