Jesus in black magic as a child?

[JimG]

The Gnostic gospels have no historical value whatever. Using them to try to fill in the blanks of Jesus’ early years is like taking the DaVince Code as gospel truth. Unfortunately, many readers of both the gnostics and the DaVinci Code fail to make any distinction between reliable sources and fabrications.

 

[TobyLue]

Back in high school this pagen gentleman told me that Jesus was into witchcraft

Yeah, and then we are going to hear that “God lives in some distant planet”

Ohh, wait, somebody is already saying that:whacky:

 

[Scott_Waddell]

cleopa:

Most people never read the Bible, much less any Gnostic gospels or apocryphal texts. Many of the folks here regard the CCC as having more authority than the Bible. They should post a “Beware of Pharisees” sign at the entrance to Catholic.com.

+JMJ

The Deposit of Faith comes from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the apostolic teachers (the Magesterium). The CCC is authoritative only in the sense that is a sure teaching norm (I think that is how they word it) about the Deposit of Faith. To say that it is more authoritative than the Bible would be wrong. I will be willing to correct anyone who asserts this, so perhaps you can give me one example of the many people here who believe what you say.

Scott

 

[DianJo]

cleopa:

Most people never read the Bible, much less any Gnostic gospels or apocryphal texts. Many of the folks here regard the CCC as having more authority than the Bible. They should post a “Beware of Pharisees” sign at the entrance to Catholic.com.

Ya know, it’s really a shame that you find this kind of remark necessary. It contributes nothing to the conversation. I would suggest you keep your unrelated opinion to yourself. It was rude to say the least.

 

[LSK]

Genesis315:

You don’t get it. The Catholic Church destroyed ALL of the evidence and documentation!

GOLLY! I FORGOT that part - Us Catholics are always having to ‘prove’ we DID NOT DO SOMETHING…

GO NINERS

 

[cleopa]

Ghosty:

Cleopa: The fact that you believe the Pharisees believed in reincarnation, rather than resurrection seems to call into question your ability to compare them to anyone.

Ever heard of the Oral Torah? The Talmud is very clear that reincarnation has always been part and parcel to Rabbinical Judaism. Many modern Orthodox Jews also accept reincarnation as part of God’s plan.

Cleopa

 

[Ghosty]

Ever heard of the Oral Torah? The Talmud is very clear that reincarnation has always been part and parcel to Rabbinical Judaism. Many modern Orthodox Jews also accept reincarnation as part of God’s plan.

Heard of it? I’ve read it. Got the Yoma Tractate out upstairs. Reincarnation ain’t in it. You’re thinking of the Zohar, which is a compilation of Jewish folklore and mysticism. It’s also not binding on Jews, Orthodox or otherwise.

Of course, in my readings of the Talmud I may have missed references to reincarnation. Got a citation? I’ll go look it up in my personal copy of the Talmud.

 

[Wormwood]

Ghosty:

Wormwood: Sure, we’re curious about the time period between the ages of 10 and 30, but the fact is that there are no records kept of him during those times, at least not that have survived. The Gnostic Gospels in question were written much, much later, and were universally rejected by the Apostalic Churches.

They are no different than if I were to sit down and write a story about that period of the life of Jesus today, fully out of my own head. They are worthless for information on Jesus, and dangerous insofar as people think they’re useful.

Well technically there were no records kept during the time of Christ’s teaching’s either. So as they were also written down later, they are no better than what you could sit and write yourself correct?

cleopa:

I believe you are speaking of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. In the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Jesus fashions twelve sparrows out of clay (not a golem). In this gospel, Jesus causes a child to wither, and strikes another child dead for banging into Jesus’ shoulder.

Well just so you know a golem is any creature made of inorganic materials (clay, steel, etc) and infused with life through some magical process , but yes I was refering to a humanoid golem…my instinct tells me that no, it was not in Gospel of Thomas but I will have to double check. It seems like it had something to do with kabala. I’ll get back to you.

Most people never read the Bible, much less any Gnostic gospels or apocryphal texts. Many of the folks here regard the CCC as having more authority than the Bible. They should post a “Beware of Pharisees” sign at the entrance to Catholic.com.

I agree and disagree. Just as with anything you have to take the bad with the good. That is to say, in any organization there are good and bad people. There are those who excel in every aspect, and there are those that are content to do just enough to get by. Surely you cannot accuse someone like Ghosty, or Church Militant of being under versed…if I ask for a verse, within one or two posts I always get my verse (or explaination). Likewise there are people here that can’t understand your refusal to except “because the church says so” or "because the bible says so…somewhere in the middle I think, as a valid explaination. To argue with them is like arguing with your family pet…it demeans you both. Just keep in mind that this is a public forum which means anyone with an opinion is welcome (even me sometimes ) but that does not mean you have to consider their opinion as anything more than what it’s worth.
What happened? I am defending you guys…what has this place done to my wretched soul?

 

[Wormwood]

GhostyQuote:
Ever heard of the Oral Torah? The Talmud is very clear that reincarnation has always been part and parcel to Rabbinical Judaism. Many modern Orthodox Jews also accept reincarnation as part of God’s plan.
Heard of it? I’ve read it. Got the Yoma Tractate out upstairs. Reincarnation ain’t in it. You’re thinking of the Zohar, which is a compilation of Jewish folklore and mysticism. It’s also not binding on Jews, Orthodox or otherwise.

Of course, in my readings of the Talmud I may have missed references to reincarnation. Got a citation? I’ll go look it up in my personal copy of the Talmud.

See what I mean? This guy is a scriptural animal…he’ll tear you apart without hesitation. Better have the texts handy if you want this guy to give you even an inch in the argument. He is a vicious cold blooded Christ wielding politician he is…
Never read the bible though…

 

[rayne89]

cleopa:

Most people never read the Bible, much less any Gnostic gospels or apocryphal texts. Many of the folks here regard the CCC as having more authority than the Bible. They should post a “Beware of Pharisees” sign at the entrance to Catholic.com.

Really?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=31455&highlight=bible

Please check the above thread about reading the Bible.

Your phrase about the CCC is rediculous. The Chruch iteslf says “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”

 

[AJV]

Montie Claunch:

Back in high school this pagen gentleman told me that Jesus was into witchcraft and all that as a child and the Catholic Church took that out of scripture to hide it from the faithful. Its been buggin me. Can anyone out there in cyberspace answer this for me?

Old story. :yawn: Add to it the number of other the things the Church “hid”. I hear it all the time on television. The other day a Muslim apologist on TV was trying to prove the difference between “Pauline Christianity” and “Barnabite Christianity” using the ‘Gospel of Barnabas’. And then he ‘demonstrated’ how the quran is true by comparing the verse of the quran with that of the ‘Gospel of Thomas’ about Jesus making a bird out of clay. Apparently the church “hid” this also to prevent this knowlege. You can read all about it in Baigent and Leigh’s books along with how St.Paul was really a Roman spy.

 

[cleopa]

Ghosty:

Heard of it? I’ve read it. Got the Yoma Tractate out upstairs. Reincarnation ain’t in it. You’re thinking of the Zohar, which is a compilation of Jewish folklore and mysticism. It’s also not binding on Jews, Orthodox or otherwise.

Of course, in my readings of the Talmud I may have missed references to reincarnation. Got a citation? I’ll go look it up in my personal copy of the Talmud.

It ain’t???

I don’t think that reading one of the sixty three tractates contained in the Talmud / Mishnah is a good basis for that opinion. Since the Yoma lecture relates solely to Yom Kippur, it doesn’t surprise me you see no references to reincarnation…

Tell you what…I don’t expect you to take my word for it. Pay a visit AskMoses.com, and ask one of the scholars there if “gilgul” (which is spoken of in the Talmud) is not believed by many (not all) Jews to refer to reincarnation.

When in doubt…let the experts decide.

Cleopa

 

[cleopa]

Wormwood:

Never read the bible though…

I shouldn’t have gone there…

 

[cleopa]

Wormwood:

…a golem is any creature made of inorganic materials (clay, steel, etc) and infused with life through some magical process , but yes I was refering to a humanoid golem…my instinct tells me that no, it was not in Gospel of Thomas but I will have to double check. It seems like it had something to do with kabala. I’ll get back to you.

I would appreciate it. I have heard golem stories, but haven’t read any dealing with Jesus. A Lubavitcher girl I know told me lots of golem stories that still give me nightmares.

Let me know what you find…especially if you find a story that says Jesus was a golem. Now that would be something.

Cleopa

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t think that reading one of the sixty three tractates contained in the Talmud / Mishnah is a good basis for that opinion. Since the Yoma lecture relates solely to Yom Kippur, it doesn’t surprise me you see no references to reincarnation…

I didn’t say I’ve only read the Yoma, I said the Yoma was just upstairs. I’ve been doing some Talmudic research during the last couple days with a Jewish friend of mine, specifically Sanhedrin 97b, so it’s pretty accessible and fresh in my brain. That’s beside the point, however.

Yes, I’m familiar with the concept of gilgul, and you are refering specifically to gilgul neshamot, as gilgul can be used to simply mean “rolling” or “cycle” (neshamot comes from the root of “souls”). I hate to burst your bubble, but it’s just not in the Talmud. In fact, aside from the Zohar, it’s first discussed in detail (to my knowledge) in “Shaar ha Gilgulim”, a 16th century work (the Zohar itself didn’t show up until the 13th centurty), though it’s mentioned before then in Kabbalist literature.

Tell you what…I don’t expect you to take my word for it. Pay a visit AskMoses.com, and ask one of the scholars there if “gilgul” (which is spoken of in the Talmud) is not believed by many (not all) Jews to refer to reincarnation.

I recommend you do the same, 'cause they aren’t going to tell you what you want to hear. I did a search there for “gilgul” and found a number of references to Kabbalah, but not a one to the Talmud. Interestingly, it also points out that some prominent Kabbalists rejected the idea reincarnation as having anything to do with Kabbalist tradition, but I’ll leave that for you to dig up on the website.

I did stumble upon this website. It lists references to gilgul as reincarnation, and the section for the Talmud is empty.

I don’t mind people making such claims, I just get frustrated when they’re unsubstantiated and about things I’m at least somewhat versed in.

Yes, reincarnation is discussed in Kabbalah, but Kabbalah is not a matter of Jewish dogma. It is mystic studies that can be taken or left, and only a minority of Jews are familiar with it on any significant level.

God Bless!
%between%

 

[Wormwood]

I would appreciate it. I have heard golem stories, but haven’t read any dealing with Jesus. A Lubavitcher girl I know told me lots of golem stories that still give me nightmares.

These are the first two I could fid but I am positive there is another that I can’t find…
Babylonian Talmud (redacted fifth century CE) and the Sefer Yezirah, thought to have been composed in the Land of Israel around the fourth century CE.