Jesus in Quran and Jesus in Trinity?

[wina]

Dear all,
I would like to know the views of this thread from muslims and christians. I don’t like arguement without respecting each other’s view. And please provide your views based on Quran and bible.
Thanks & peace

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Jesus in the Trinity

Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. St John tells us that Jesus is the “Word of God”. Not a word framed by God’s mouth - for God has no mouth, He is pure spirit - but a word in the mind of God… “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God.” (see John 1:1)

What idea produced in God’s mind could possibly be God?

Men have ideas, and any given idea is something. But God’s Word is not just something only, but it is Someone who is God. The Word knows with the same intellect as God, and loves with th same will as God.

So, The Word is exactly like God, only a different person. Hence, The Word too is God.

The mystery of the incarnation is that The Word became man; Jesus.

Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary, fulfilled prophecy, suffered and died on the Cross (on 3rd April 33AD), and rose from the dead three days later. He ascended into heaven and is seated on the right side of The Father.

 

[inJESUS]

What exactly are you looking for Wina? we need to quote verses so if you elaborate a bit in order for quotes to be given.

 

[wina]

What exactly are you looking for Wina? we need to quote verses so if you elaborate a bit in order for quotes to be given.

I want to know what in Quran said about Jesus in Trinity and may learn something about it.

Here some quotes:

In Quran:

In Sura 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” - Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not? Say: “Those who invent a lie against God will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.” They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah. If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.

So, muslims don’t believe in Trinity even they said that we are the blasphemers. But since I’ve learnt so much from CAF about catholicism and non-Catholic religion especially Islam. So, I think that there may have something about it that you can explain it intellectually and prove that Jesus is God in Trinity (honestly I want to learn about it to improve my knowledge).

 

[iaskquestions]

In Quran:

Sura 5:72-73, 5:75 “They do blaspheme who say: “God is Christ the son of Mary.”

We say, "Christ is the Word of God that became flesh.

They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a trinity: for there is no God except one God Allah.

We don’t say that God is one of the three in a trinity! That shows the poor understanding that Muslims have! We say that God is a trinity, three persons in one God. We don’t say there are three Gods but three persons in one God.

If they do not desist from their word of blasphemy, verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

We shall see who was guilty of blasphemy when we meet on judgement day!

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him.

Oh really? The messengers who came before him told that he was God! And Christ also revealed his divinity to his disciples. Christ was not such a fool that he would have his disciples pick up a serious wrong notion.

 

[inJESUS]

In Sura 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” - Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient!

 

[planten]

i do not know if this verse is specifically about Jesus or not, but if it were, or if it applies to Jesus, the author is equaling having a son with God NOT being sufficient…totally alien to the correct understanding of the Son, Word incarnate.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ahad and wahad. One and only one God.

 

[algebra]

G_D is not definable, and certainly cannot be restricted by the word ‘one’.

Dont let muslims deceive you, there are thoughts within islam of being one with the creator.

The muslims you have here have not been exposed to the more mystical traditions of islam.

 

[planten]

Some more on the same subject:

Now about the words of John:

In the beginning was the word and the word was with god. And the word was god.

Is this not a meaningless sentence? In the beginning was the word or a word. It was with God. That word was with god. The word was god… ?? What is all that? That word was with god and that word was god? How come?

And who said that?? Did Jesus say it?? No. So good-bye to it. Such an important pillar on which is standing the big building of Trinity is not from Jesus (who is considered as a prophet and a god). He did not say it. But John had the capacity to say it. Why? Why only John?

Who told him? Did an angel visit John and tell him?? No.
Is John also a God that he could order such a thing? No.
Is John a prophet of God? No. He is only a follower of Jesus at the most.

The story is very long. Jesus never claimed that he was also a god and that he should be worshipped. Jesus was not worshipped even for one day. Rather he was worshipping the One true God. He was worshipping his god. So,if Jesu was a god, then it means that a god had a god, another god.

It is sure that Jesus worshipped and prayed to his god. If Jesus was god then it menas that god had a god, perhaps a bigger God.

Which ever way the christians go, they can never explain Trinity. They had believed previously that there are three in one and one in three. The Quran mentions it too that god is the third o fthe three. Most of the christians on the net have admitted that Trinity is inexpalnable. Thos ewho tried to support Trinity said that it is very difficult to understand Trinity.

I say, why make the religion so difficult for he common people? Why not leave that subject and come to the same belief as the Jews and the Muslims!

 

[algebra]

The christian understanding of G_D is not that heretical, I would tell you that you too could be G_D, and that teaching is islamically correct.

But thats a whole nother discussion

 

[Sister_Amy]

G_D is not definable, and certainly cannot be restricted by the word ‘one’.

Unless of course God himself tells you that He is ONE. Which he did. Do you still believe in the Torah?

Dont let muslims deceive you, there are thoughts within islam of being one with the creator.

I sense a boogeyman around the corner.

The muslims you have here have not been exposed to the more mystical traditions of islam.

He means me, I think. Rejecting something as unorthodox isn’t the same as not being exposed to it. And just because something masqurades as Islam does not mean that it is even permissible without proof.

 

[algebra]

Unless of course God himself tells you that He is ONE. Which he did. Do you still believe in the Torah?

Question is Amy, do you understand what G_D means? There are many levels to that statement.

Its not just a profession, it is something that has to be practiced.
So simply stating G_D (in shahadah) is one is meaningless.
Praying 5 times a day is meaningless.

It is the actions that flow from internalizing there is only G_D and me, and we are continuous.

I am an extension of the one G_D, in this world.

Dont get me wrong I am not agreeing with the christians, but I am not about to accuse them of improperly understanding a teaching that even now I am just beginning to realise that I do not understand terribly well.

Specifically Jesus could well have called himself the ‘son of G_D’ and he could well have been G_D in the world.

He means me, I think. Rejecting something as unorthodox isn’t the same as not being exposed to it. And just because something masqurades as Islam does not mean that it is even permissible without proof.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Algebra the Sufi. LOL. You never cease to surprise me.

 

[algebra]

Algebra the Sufi. LOL. You never cease to surprise me.

Imagine how I feel, if you are confused

At least the answers are there…

 

[inJESUS]

As some christian friends have said that Quran did not understand Trinity. That is not true.

we dissect the aayas to give our conclusions. What have you done so far Planten to prove that the Quran got is right?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

The Trinity is a mystery. How can God be one in three or three in one?

Is it impossible that God can be three? No, God can be one, three or whatever He wants to be. So the problem is not whether God can be 3, but can we as mere people be able to understand God being 3.

The 2nd person of the blessed Trinity, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, seems to be the single biggest problem in the definition. How can a man be God? It is another mystery but not impossible to understand. A rather difficult to read but historical article on the origination of the term Homoousion or “God Essence” is here:

newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm

But it further complicated by the necessity of a savior dying for man for sins he did not commit. Or we are still under the curse of original sin committed by Adam. So God had to become a man, to die as a man, for a man that didn’t commit the sin.

It does seem the God had to jump through a lot of hoops. Be 3 in 1 in all of that too. But I am a Christian. Am I to believe all this or is there a simpler answer?

What if God forgave a repentant Adam? Would the concept of original sin still be necessary? Would God have to become man? Would He have die for my sins and those of Adam? Are all these things still required?

Is Jesus God? As for me, I believe He is. But is it hard to understand? I can see it from the Muslim perspective to be difficult. That’s why the Catholic Church is here to help with these issues. Jesus set up the Church with Peter to be the head. Jesus instituted Baptism to erase original sin. So after baptism the believer has original sin removed and all sins prior to baptism. After baptism there is confession for current sins. But is this all really necessary? Why can’t we just go to God and ask for forgiveness?

Sorry for ramble, but to wrap it up: Seems to me that the concept of God in Christianity is difficult, while the concept of God in Islam is easier? What am I missing? Am I dumbing it down too much? Why am I confused? Why wouldn’t God want to make it easy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

The Trinity is a mystery. How can God be one in three or three in one?

Is it impossible that God can be three? No, God can be one, three or whatever He wants to be. So the problem is not whether God can be 3, but can we as mere people be able to understand God being 3.

The 2nd person of the blessed Trinity, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, seems to be the single biggest problem in the definition. How can a man be God? It is another mystery but not impossible to understand. A rather difficult to read but historical article on the origination of the term Homoousion or “God Essence” is here:

newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm

But it further complicated by the necessity of a savior dying for man for sins he did not commit. Or we are still under the curse of original sin committed by Adam. So God had to become a man, to die as a man, for a man that didn’t commit the sin.

It does seem the God had to jump through a lot of hoops. Be 3 in 1 in all of that too. But I am a Christian. Am I to believe all this or is there a simpler answer?

What if God forgave a repentant Adam? Would the concept of original sin still be necessary? Would God have to become man? Would He have die for my sins and those of Adam? Are all these things still required?

Is Jesus God? As for me, I believe He is. But is it hard to understand? I can see it from the Muslim perspective to be difficult. That’s why the Catholic Church is here to help with these issues. Jesus set up the Church with Peter to be the head. Jesus instituted Baptism to erase original sin. So after baptism the believer has original sin removed and all sins prior to baptism. After baptism there is confession for current sins. But is this all really necessary? Why can’t we just go to God and ask for forgiveness?

Sorry for ramble, but to wrap it up: Seems to me that the concept of God in Christianity is difficult, while the concept of God in Islam is easier? What am I missing? Am I dumbing it down too much? Why am I confused? Why wouldn’t God want to make it easy?

Always a pleasure to read your posts, Ted.

 

[Angelos]

Some more on the same subject:

Now about the words of John:

In the beginning was the word and the word was with god. And the word was god.

Is this not a meaningless sentence? In the beginning was the word or a word. It was with God. That word was with god. The word was god… ?? What is all that? That word was with god and that word was god? How come?

The fact that you do not understand our Bible does not make it an unreasonable book. Your remarks remind me of a blind man that blamed everyone that could see for being a liar.

And who said that?? Did Jesus say it?? No. So good-bye to it. Such an important pillar on which is standing the big building of Trinity is not from Jesus (who is considered as a prophet and a god). He did not say it. But John had the capacity to say it. Why? Why only John?

Who told him? Did an angel visit John and tell him?? No.
Is John also a God that he could order such a thing? No.
Is John a prophet of God? No. He is only a follower of Jesus at the most.

The funny thing is that even your beloved Koran is overtly affected by John’s theology about the Logos, for it names Jesus as “a word” and “the word” a few times. However, the authors of the Koran did not know why Jesus and ONLY Jesus was designated as the word and what that theologically meant. Unfortunately, they could not go further than copying the term from an apocryphal Gospel of the second century.

Who said that Mohammas was the last prophet? Did Jesus say it? No!! So good bye to it. Such an important pillar of Islam and Jesus did not say it! But Mohammad had the capacity to say it. Why? Why only Mohammad? No angel appeared to Mohammad to say it either. The Koran is a fabrication attributed to God by Mohammad and his followers at most.

The story is very long. Jesus never claimed that he was also a god and that he should be worshipped. Jesus was not worshipped even for one day. Rather he was worshipping the One true God. He was worshipping his god. So,if Jesu was a god, then it means that a god had a god, another god.It is sure that Jesus worshipped and prayed to his god. If Jesus was god then it menas that god had a god, perhaps a bigger God.

Jesus had been worshipped by His apostles and disciples and no one objected to it until an illiterate guy decided to bring his fantasies about being God’s final messenger true. The objections to Jesus’ divinity in the Koran are results of logical fallacies and Mohammad’s misunderstanding. Today the so-called strong arguments against the Trinity in the Koran are reckoned one of its biggest mistakes.

Which ever way the christians go, they can never explain Trinity. They had believed previously that there are three in one and one in three. The Quran mentions it too that god is the third o fthe three. Most of the christians on the net have admitted that Trinity is inexpalnable. Thos ewho tried to support Trinity said that it is very difficult to understand Trinity.

The Koran mistakenly presumes that Christians believe “God is the third of the Tree”, which is but a lie devised by Mohammad’s ignorant scribes. We know well that it is impossible to explain the mystery of the Trinity to the members of a religion the book of which deliberately presents a distorted and unreal version of the Trinitarian doctrine. Muslims will never get the idea of the Trinity because their scripture knows nothing about it.

I say, why make the religion so difficult for he common people? Why not leave that subject and come to the same belief as the Jews and the Muslims!

You seem to forget that the Koran is not pleased with the monotheistic belief of Judaism as it falsely accuses them of believing in the divinity of a man named Uzair, who is unknown to Jews of all times. Why believe in the teachings of a book that teaches wrong things and slanders people?

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

Always a pleasure to read your posts, Ted.

You 2 Amy.

I was hoping someone could simplify this for me.

Please would someone help clarify this for me?

I guess my core question is: Just because God is able to do something, would He do it if there seems to be simpler way? Why wouldn’t God make it easier to understand? Why do I need to be blamed for another’s sins? Why does God need to be 3?