Jesus in Quran and Jesus in Trinity?

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Thank you all for your explaination.

Ted, what you said is exactly what I feel because it’s difficult for me to understand it.

But InJesus’ explaination, it does makes sense for me. Which I’ve been Catholics and know that God is still mystery for me but HE does exist.

Planten, sorry that I will not leave my faith ever only I can’t understand about The Trinity because it already flows in all my blood cells. you know what I mean:)
 
planten said:
… In the beginning was the word and the word was with god. And the word was god.

Is this not a meaningless sentence? In the beginning was the word or a word. It was with God. That word was with god. The word was god… ?? What is all that? That word was with god and that word was god? How come? …
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I thought I explained it in post # 2. 🤷
 
wina said:
… So, muslims don’t believe in Trinity even they said that we are the blasphemers…
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Forget about the Trinity - Muslims don’t even believe the crucifixion took place (see Qur’an 4:157). Muslims deny our history, and so it is inevitable that they’ll deny our theology too.
 
planten said:
… Jesus was not worshipped even for one day…
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That’s right. Because His mission was to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He didn’t come to be served, but to serve and give his life to redeem us (see Matthew 20:28).
 
Sister_Amy said:
Ahad and wahad. One and only one God.
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when did you convert to islam?we also believe in one god but in 3 person.its very easy like SUN.the sun is father,sun light is son&warmth of sun is holy spirit.a friend explained me trinity like this so its very clear.because sun+sun light+warmth of sun=1 sun.but sun isn’t sunlight or warmth,sunlight isn’t sun or warmth&warmth is not sun or sunlight.but sun contain all the 3.
 
algebra said:
huh? allahs spirit is mercy?
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yes, read how some translators render it when the word in fact is Spirit .

012.087
YUSUFALI: “O my sons! go ye and enquire about Joseph and his brother, and never give up hope of Allah’s** Soothing Mercy**: truly no one despairs of Allah’s Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith.”
PICKTHAL: Go, O my sons, and ascertain concerning Joseph and his brother, and despair not of the Spirit of Allah. Lo! none despaireth of the **Spirit of Allah **save disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: O my sons! Go and inquire respecting Yusuf and his brother, and despair not of Allah’s mercy; surely none despairs of Allah’s mercy except the unbelieving people.

Picktthal was faithful to the word…the others inserted a word that does not exist in the verse.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Absolutely. 👍

But, how many persons? The answer to this questions helps us to define the Trinity.
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Charlie, the word translated as “person” bewilders the heck out of Muslims because they understand it in literal meaning of human person.

To us, Allah’s Word is a “person” (Uqnum), Allah’s Spirit is a “person”(Uqnum) because they are not passive “powers” of God that can or cannot be “excercised” but are His essence. At no time was the Father Wisdomless or Spiritless.

Here we can explain it by comparing it to the Islamic belief that Allah is not omnipresent by his person but by his knowledge. To us, if God’s Knowledge/Word/Wisdom is omnipresent, it means God is omnipresent because His knowledge is not a passive power detached from Him but is His essence; whatever the Father does, His Wisdom does likewise because they are One…not Father is One and His Knowledge something seperate from Him or some inactive power detached from Him. The Knowledge of the Father and His Spirit do exactly what the Father does, that is why we use the word “person”, to explain that they are not passive powers.
 
inJESUS said:
Charlie, the word translated as “person” bewilders the heck out of Muslims because they understand it in literal meaning of human person.

To us, Allah’s Word is a “person” (Uqnum), Allah’s Spirit is a “person”(Uqnum) because they are not passive “powers” of God that can or cannot be “excercised” but are His essence. At no time was the Father Wisdomless or Spiritless.

Here we can explain it by comparing it to the Islamic belief that Allah is not omnipresent by his person but by his knowledge. To us, if God’s Knowledge/Word/Wisdom is omnipresent, it means God is omnipresent because His knowledge is not a passive power detached from Him but is His essence.
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Yep. The word “person” in the Trinity, actually an incorrect translation of the word “Persona” or “Hypostasis”. I think anybody outside Christianity will take a word “person” as representative of “self”.

Second, the Muslims I think believe that the word “Allah” as the name of God. We, the Christians, believe God = Allah. And, we believe that the name of God/Allah is YHWH. So, if we say that God is three persona but One in entity/being, then the logic is how can one name belongs to 3 different beings. This kind of thinking works in a very limited condition. Such as: if Allah is the name of God, then God = Allah and Allah = God. All of this because God is one. But, when the logic applied further (to human, for instance), then the logic failed. swariffin equals to human, but human is not equal to swariffin, because human are many (about 6 billion according to statistic).

For us the Christian, God = Allah because “God” and “Allah” are the same terminology of a single omnipotent and powerful being.

For the Muslims, God = Allah because Allah is the name of God. Since God is one, then Allah = God and God = Allah. From this condition, I can understand the logic.

I think that based on these two perception of the name of God, Trinity will never make sense to them. Definitely they will decline YHWH as the name of God, as it is not in Quran.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Forget about the Trinity - Muslims don’t even believe the crucifixion took place (see Qur’an 4:157). Muslims deny our history, and so it is inevitable that they’ll deny our theology too.
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C-Z, we Muslims do not believe in Trinity. But we believe in Crucifixion. Jesus was tried on the cross. he however did not die on the cross. When brought down, he was alive. He rested in the tomb and recovered and went away.

There is no need of any original sin and no need to kill Jesus on the cross because that is a cursed type of death. Quran denies the cursed death for Jesus. Jesus was told by Allah before going on the cross. That was when he was praying heavily in the garden before his arrest that he will not die a cursed death on the cross. But he will die a natual death on the bed in complete peace.

That is what happened to Jesus. Please do not say that all Muslims deny the crucifixion. Thanks. The proof of Jesus being helped by God (he had a God to whom he was praying) is also found in the bible where it is written that while he was praying to avoid the cup, an angel visited him and strenghened him, What is the use of the angel if it is not to save him ?
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
That’s right. Because His mission was to offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He didn’t come to be served, but to serve and give his life to redeem us (see Matthew 20:28).
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You are making a religion yourself. Jesus did not come to die for any one on the cross and God does not like that his pious men should be defeated and killed. You are making it up.

And to kill A for the sins of B? You cannot explain that too. Where is such a law? And to kill an innocent man of God for the sins of others. It is a theory that nobody will believe. Every one is to pay for himself. The Quran is very clear on this subject. It says “Every soul shall bear it own burden,”

Why did not Jesus come to be worshipped if he was god? He served the mankind under very difficult situation. He did not want to be served. That is right. But if he was god, he should have been worshipped and he should have clearly told every one that he was a god and should be worshipped. But he did not say that.

It was an important news, if he was god. He should have broken that news loud and clear and not in any ambigous manner. He did nothjing of the sort. But you are insisting that people should admit that he was claiming that he was God. Thereby you are trying to make Jesus a sinner.

Jews were his enemies. They were blaming Jesus for blasphemy. You are providing a proof to those enemies.
 
swariffin said:
Yep. The word “person” in the Trinity, actually an incorrect translation of the word “Persona” or “Hypostasis”. I think anybody outside Christianity will take a word “person” as representative of “self”.

that is why when we are adressing Muslims specifically, we cannot just throw the word “person” and expect them to understand what it means. We must use words they are able to understand or explain to them why the word person is used in the first place. Likewise, we see a distinction in Islam between Allah and His knowlege. Allah is not omnipresent in person but in Knowledge yet who can claim that Allah’s Knowledge is a created thing or that it is not Allah in essence or that it is a passive power that can or cannot exist? If Muslims do not explain these things in terms of Unity of the Godhead or “persons” in the Godhead, it does not mean they are not aware of it. They just do not address these arguments with the average Muslims but rather stress the Oness of God, something we already agree with.

Yet when Muslim clerics adress the Christian Trinity, suddenly words like “partners to Allah”, “allah does not beget a son” and “no son , Allah is self-sufficient” are highlighted, things we do not even believe in.
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Planten, kindly open another thread with these questions and i will personally adress them all. This thread is about the Trinity.
 
morning_star777 said:
when did you convert to islam?we also believe in one god but in 3 person.its very easy like SUN.the sun is father,sun light is son&warmth of sun is holy spirit.a friend explained me trinity like this so its very clear.because sun+sun light+warmth of sun=1 sun.but sun isn’t sunlight or warmth,sunlight isn’t sun or warmth&warmth is not sun or sunlight.but sun contain all the 3.
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Similary some one explained Trinity as an egg. That is the white, yellow and the shell.
Another one explained it as tea. There 1. Milk 2. Sugar 3. tea leaves.

That seemed to be a joke. Because I knew that anothe rimportant part was missing that was water in the tea pot.
 
planten said:
Similary some one explained Trinity as an egg. That is the white, yellow and the shell.
Another one explained it as tea. There 1. Milk 2. Sugar 3. tea leaves.

That seemed to be a joke. Because I knew that anothe rimportant part was missing that was water in the tea pot.
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these are human analogies to make things easier. Jesus Himself used parables to make things easier. The point behind them is to explain an idea, not to dissect the example itself.
 
Planten, have you read what we were discussing? any (name removed by moderator)ut?
 
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