Jesus in the Monastery

[FCEGM]

Reflective of the Church’s understanding of this is the fact that the Church has named both St. Francis Xavier, the great Jesuit missionary to the Far East, AND St. Therese of Lisieux (the most recent Doctor of the Church), the young Discalced Carmelite nun who died in her twenties, as the co-patrons of missionaries. The Church recognized that her work in her monastery was just as important as the more visible and more adventurous St. Francis. (What, though, is more adventurous than seeking the depths of God’s presence by grace in one’s soul?) St. Therese experienced a longing to be everything for Christ: a missionary, a martyr suffering all the martyrdoms of the Saints, a prophet, a Doctor of the Church (!) – even a priest; but all these desires were caught up in her sudden recognition that “in the heart of my the Church, who is my mother, I WILL BE LOVE!” (You can read of her life in her autobiography, published posthumously, Story of a Soul.)

Some years ago a popular Catholic magazine published an article relating interviews with men and women of various monastic Orders reflecting on their lives. Most striking was the interview with a young monk who admitted he was quite humbled by the fact that the only thing the Lord found him capable of doing was praying. This is the witness of a Saint-in-the-making.

You have to keep in mind that any work done for the Lord must BE His work, what He has called us to do (to be!). We may all want to be great missionaries (we must all at least desire the furtherance of God’s Kingdom), but if the Lord has something else in mind, we must be willing to drop all for Him, even if it means putting away great ambitions of service and hoeing a very little row in a monastery in some backwater town in France.

 

[swplan76]

This is where we truly differ.

Never having been a Catholic, I’m not sure how you can say it failed. I hope you don’t think that because some priests went wrong that the whole Church has failed? …

The church is local, but also global. If one part of it fails, it speaks to its entire body - As a larger body, the church has failed in multiple ways. Selling entrance into heaven, pedophilia, the Spanish inquisition, the crusades… these are some ways in which the church has clearly failed God and fallen short of His glory. The Catholic church is not unique in this though. Other members of the larger church have made their own mistakes. Its just that the Catholic church has been around longer and has had more time to build up a list - kidding

I don’t believe my Church has failed. My Church is not one dimensional. It cherishes the Bible, which the Church gave the world, but it continued to grow into the fullness of Christianity that God meant it to be. It has been divinely inspired for over 2000 years now and God will continue to inspire it. We don’t worship the word, we worship Jesus Christ, who through the Holy Spirit, will continue to keep our Church relevant and true to His teachings.

Failing as God’s people…
David is described in the Bible as “a man after God’s own heart.” He was the king of Israel - God’s man. David also is guilty of some terrible sins (murder, adultery, etc…). God’s people fail Him. This isn’t really that shocking is it? It isn’t how great the church is that should draw us to Him, its how great He is - sure the church is meant to reflect his goodness and his light, but we are human and so we are imperfect - no one is innocent of that. What religion **can **do in some cases is lead people to itself instead of leading people to God. I’ve heard it said that it **might **be that God hates religion. If He does I think it might be because, in some environments it seems to attempt to compete with Him for our hearts.

I’m with you on the reality that “(Christianity) has been divinely inspired for over 2000 years now and God will continue to inspire it. We don’t worship the word, we worship Jesus Christ, who through the Holy Spirit, will continue to keep our Church relevant and true…” I agree.

God is supernatural - beyond the natural - beyond us in inumerable ways, right? God surprises people through out scripture with how He does things. Jesus never heals people the same way twice. He was always doing things that left his enemies and closest friends scratching their heads… I have been learning that **How **He does what He does is usually surprising. How it is that He has been cointinuing to inspire the church is a mystery - we can’t see everything He is doing. Through the Holy Spirit He keeps His message relevant and true, but How this is happening may leave us scratching our heads - maybe He is doing it in a way that we cannot define or fully comprehend, so How do we respond to finding ourselves present amidst a mystery? I think we have to be open to the idea that there is more… I know, for the way I talk it may seem that I have fairly concrete ideas about How He is doing all that He is doing, but mostly I’m looking to throw ideas out to people so those ideas can be challenged and I can stretch because I know there is more How the church has carried on all these years might be outside of the confines of our line of thinking - I think that is likely simply because God is supernatural (beyond our ways).

 

[swplan76]

I have to say, that I feel alittle sorry for you, because you are on a journey to find God, but you refuse to look in the right places. I think it takes some guts to go against the one true Church of Jesus Christ and go your own way, and that you as an individual knows best what God taught us,…

I don’t believe I am going against the “one true church of Jesus Christ.” I believe I am part of the church. I don’t believe I have gone my own way - I belive I am journeying with Him, in the way He has for me. I don’t think I know whats best. He does, so I seek after Him and He speaks.

that you don’t trust your fellow man, who is divinely inspired, to be your teacher in all things God, that you don’t believe our Pope to be infallible on the teachings of Christ.

I do trust many Christians I know who are walking in the Spirit, but (throughout the day and) at the end of the day I attempt to turn everything back to God and seek His help in understanding things. I try not to leave my faith in humanity because God is available to us - the Holy Spirit is available constantly.

Popes
I have seen God moving in the larger church beyond the control of the pope. Some popes have been corrupt. Some popes have been fairly clueless about what God is interested in. I don’t see anything in scripture that points to the need for papal succession.

The whole “go it on your own journey” that your on right now would scare the heck out of me to be honest! To have no place to call your spiritual home is downright scary to me.
Your journey could end tommorrow if you open your eyes and your heart to the Catholic Church, to the sacraments we continue to partake in to nourish our souls, and to the fullness of Christianity as God meant it to be,

“Foxes have holes and eagles have nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head.” “Take up your cross and follow me.” My spiritual home… I am always just a step from home. The Holy Spirit lives inside me, surrender, connection with Him is just a prayer away.

I don’t want the journey to ever end! Its beautiful! I am always learning more and growing and becoming more the person He created me to be. I think you are right about how the sacraments nourish our souls - I partake in those.

Jim, I really don’t mean to be offensive in what I’m about to say, but I want to be honest, so please just take this as me being ‘real’ with you… Most Catholics that I know don’t know what the rituals they partake in mean. I have gone to mass on numerous occassions with Catholic friends - they don’t usually listen to the homily. They don’t usually find meaning it for themselves. Mostly they come to partake in the service and the eucharist so they can feel like they’ve done their duty and they are ok until the next service - its like they are paying off their fire insurance. I do know a few exceptions to the rule. It may be where I live, but the Catholics I know seem to be after the ‘American Dream’ not after visions of the Kingdom.

I believe that the greater church would be beautiful if it could join together as a body on some of the important things and overlook the small things that keep us apart. There is a lot we can all learn from each other. The tough thing about learning is that you have to want to learn.

not the one dimensional faith of Sola Scriptura that you continue to try and make work. Obviously you are not yet happy on your faith journey or you wouldn’t have come here, and remember, you came to us, we didn’t go to you. you are the seeker, not us.

I don’t actually believe in Sola Scriptura - this is the first time I’ve typed the word here.

I am happy with my faith journey - its one of exploration, seeking new dimensions. I want more of Him. I hope to always find myself wanting more. I don’t think we are supposed to come to a place where we feel that we are done. He has immeasurably more for us to enjoy. I think a full life is one that is expanding (not physically, though this happens).

I originally came to this forum in response to an article I read on monasticism… confused by what I was reading, I wanted to present my thoughts in a Catholic forum to Catholics… Its been good so far.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[swplan76]

I have to wonder when will Protestants stop “protesting” and come home again? There protest started 1500 years ago, and the thought it is still going on today must be hurting Jesus terribly. Maybe it is time to stop searching and put your ego aside and just come home Steve. I think that if you were to partake in a Catholic Mass and feel the power and truth of Christ in all His Glory, you would be “saved”, you would be home again…

Is it possible that we are home and that we aren’t protesting any more? I’m not protesting - I feel that I am a Catholic and a Protestant: I am just a Christ follower. What I’m doing isn’t hurting Jesus. I mentioned some of the Catholics I know in a previous post - many of them are Catholic educators and some are religion teachers. They teach kids to go through rituals, but never seek the deeper meaning of them. I know a good number of “Catholics” who don’t believe that Jesus was real, or if they believe He existed, they think the whole thing was blown out of proportion and what we do today is just one way of reaching out to God - its their way because they were born into it. (Personally, I think that when some of them partake in the eucharist, because of what they believe about Him, they may as well be spitting in His face as He hangs on the cross.) This is what they are admitting in front of kids in some Catholic high schools. This is just another way that the church fails people and God - the Catholic church is not alone in it… The strange thing is that God sifts through the foolishness and when the gospel is presented by believing Catholics, He plants the seed in those kids who are open to Him.

 

[swplan76]

Frances,

    Wow!  What a thorough and direct response!  You have made a very good case for monasteries and have filled in some blanks for me!  I'm still caught up on the point of supporting, or turning a blind eye to specific systems, like specific monasteries, that don't function any more as a healthy Jesus centered community.  

    I know that Catholics believe in Papal authority and the authority of the church, so if aspects of it are challenged (even if they are toxic) many Catholics will get up in arms about it, but I still find it surprising to see blind defense of obviously poisonous scenarios.  

    I watched some movies recently - one a documentary called, 'Deliver us From Evil' and another film called 'The Devil's Playground.'  The documentary is fact (though like anything can be biased, it may be skewed in some way) - its shocking to me that so many people will still attempt to protect, or defend the church by quieting the victims of abuse.  The movie talks about a specific culture where in young boys were being groomed to be priests, to be celibate.  It presents some priests who were not cut out to be celibate and some of the boys who try to deal with their sexuality in unhealthy ways - some boys are tempted to engage in homosexuality but do not - none among the priests and no pedophilia - the priests in the movie just struggle with heterosexual desire.  Some live in self-loathing torture because they want to be sexual, but cannot because they are not allowed.  Both movies point to the idea that the Catholic concept of the priesthood fosters unhealthy sexuality.  I think it would be great if the Catholic church could just accept that it is not appropriate to demand celibacy of priests instead of defending it, or covering it up.  

     I think we should just call things what they are and be honest about short comings.  How else can healing begin?

 

[jimcav]

Frances,

    Wow!  What a thorough and direct response!  You have made a very good case for monasteries and have filled in some blanks for me!  I'm still caught up on the point of supporting, or turning a blind eye to specific systems, like specific monasteries, that don't function any more as a healthy Jesus centered community.  

    I know that Catholics believe in Papal authority and the authority of the church, so if aspects of it are challenged (even if they are toxic) many Catholics will get up in arms about it, but I still find it surprising to see blind defense of obviously poisonous scenarios.  

    I watched some movies recently - one a documentary called, 'Deliver us From Evil' and another film called 'The Devil's Playground.'  The documentary is fact (though like anything can be biased, it may be skewed in some way) - its shocking to me that so many people will still attempt to protect, or defend the church by quieting the victims of abuse.  The movie talks about a specific culture where in young boys were being groomed to be priests, to be celibate.  It presents some priests who were not cut out to be celibate and some of the boys who try to deal with their sexuality in unhealthy ways - some boys are tempted to engage in homosexuality but do not - none among the priests and no pedophilia - the priests in the movie just struggle with heterosexual desire.  Some live in self-loathing torture because they want to be sexual, but cannot because they are not allowed.  Both movies point to the idea that the Catholic concept of the priesthood fosters unhealthy sexuality.  I think it would be great if the Catholic church could just accept that it is not appropriate to demand celibacy of priests instead of defending it, or covering it up.  

     I think we should just call things what they are and be honest about short comings.  How else can healing begin?

Yes Steve, it was a very thorough and thought provoking answer that Frances gave you, but you failied to respond to it. He gave you much to talk about on the subject of monasteries, which is what you are apparently seeking here, but somehow that brought you to the subject of celibacy! Geez, are you just here to pick arguments and make Catholics angry!?

Your previous post to me makes me believe that you are not sincere, because whenever I talk to a protestant looking to convert you, they always say how many Catholics they know, bla,bla,bla, but they don’t know Jesus blablabla, they just go through the motions bla,bla,bla, I’ve talked to priests bla,bla,bla and even they don’t know anything blablabla… It all sounds right out of the playbook.

Enjoy your “journey”…

 

[JReducation]

This is a long and almost over simplified discussion. A monastic, man or woman, is a person who leaves the physical world behind to find God and become immersed in God’s mystery. As he or she does this, with the passing of the years, he or she becomes an offering to God for the salvation of the world, just as Christ became an offering to the Father for the salvation of the world.

I can’t imagine a life more connected to the world than one that disappears into the mystery of God for the sake of humanity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[swplan76]

Yes Steve, it was a very thorough and thought provoking answer that Frances gave you, but you failied to respond to it. He gave you much to talk about on the subject of monasteries, which is what you are apparently seeking here, but somehow that brought you to the subject of celibacy! Geez, are you just here to pick arguments and make Catholics angry!?

Your previous post to me makes me believe that you are not sincere, because whenever I talk to a protestant looking to convert you, they always say how many Catholics they know, bla,bla,bla, but they don’t know Jesus blablabla, they just go through the motions bla,bla,bla, I’ve talked to priests bla,bla,bla and even they don’t know anything blablabla… It all sounds right out of the playbook.

Enjoy your “journey”…

Hey Jim,

     Your animosity and frustration is a puzzle to me.

     I've met all kinds of religious people in my life and its amazing to me when devout Christians are so content to be easily angered.  I'm not here to anger Catholics.  Its sad that my asking of questions can so easily control you.  Steadfast love and self control should be evident among us, but you are so quick to attempt to shut me up and become hurt by what I present...

    The truth will stand up for itself.  If the Catholic church is its representative, we should not be afraid of questions - the truth will shine.  If you are sure I am insincere, then don't humor me, just let the thread die.

   I've also met all kinds of Christians who don't like to be faced with challenges.  I've met many who allow fear to keep them in a state of stagnation... As God has journied on, they can only see Him from a distance, because they have refused to cooperate with Him as He attempts to draw them further.  CS Lewis uses the metaphor of a Lion to represent God among us.  The Lion is unpredictable and our instincts tell us that He is dangerous, but we have to risk it if we are going to really know what its like to go further.  Challenges are here to help us become more fully who and what God planned for us to be from the beginning.  "rejoice in your sufferings...."  If dealing with these questions is not your 'bag' then don't force yourself to do it.  

   I'm not trying to convert Catholics.  Stay Catholic.  Many Catholics are seeking God and are right where He wants them to be - Many are not (this is the case for any branch of the Church).  I want to learn from all Christians I encounter and it may be that I might be able to offer something as well... I think that is how it should be.

Be Blessed,
Steve

 

[Poor_Clare_tobe]

*sw plan
perhaps since you do not seem to be seeking a vocation in religious life at this time? perhaps you ought to consider posting your discussion questions on a more appropriate forum??? You are new in the forums and we welcome you, but here we are most of discerning the type of response we are making in our own lives… not tearing down the institution. I would suggest picking up your discussion and thread in a different spot in these forums.
Just a thought?
Or perhaps the moderator could move this thread to a more appropriate location?
*
Blessings of Peace and All Good!

P.S. Perhaps my own response is colored by the fact that I soon will be joining one of those institutions you mention. No as a cloistered nun I shall not go out into the world and preach or help the poor. However every day as part of my vocation I will be called upon to pray and do penance to help those that do. Every day my community will receive calls and or emails asking the sisters to pray for someone who has a need whether spiritual or physical. Great saints found it a joy to live this lifestyle?? Do I think Christ will hold it against me or others for choosing it??? NO. time and again Christ has asked for prayer. What a comfort what a blessing what a privilege to be able to respond.
[PPS… I also served 10 years as a professed active sister before needing to help family so I do value both callings]