"JESUS IS LORD"/ "JESUS IS GOD" controversy

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whyeyeman said:
Again, you take the words of the people who executed our Lord over the words of Christ himself.
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Which of these “executed our Lord?” The prophet Daniel or Luke, the author of Acts?

Those are the only words being “taken” here.
 
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He said, “I am who am.” His listeners obviously thought he was making a divine claim, since they tried to stone him.
 
whyeyeman said:
The words accusing Jesus of blasphemy.
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Clearly Jesus wasn’t being blasphemous because he was God.

So, no, the words of the Pharisees are not to be trusted because by saying he is God Jesus didn’t commit blasphemy.

The Pharisees were wrong so who is “trusting” them?
 
He wasn’t being blasphemous because he didn’t say anything that constituted blasphemy… the only people to interpret that way were the Pharisees. A very untrustworthy source.
 
I know. But people have tried to claim that because the Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming he was God, he must be God.
 
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purestmoney said:
A) If Jesus is God, why in many instances in the Bible did he referred to Himself and the son of God?
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I’m not really sure he ever referred to himself as “Son of God,” I don’t think he did. Rather he called himself “Son of Man” which underlines that he is first of all God (the I AM who existed before Abraham), who is incarnate in humanity.
 
Crocus said:
I’m not really sure he ever referred to himself as “Son of God,” I don’t think he did. Rather he called himself “Son of Man” which underlines that he is first of all God (the I AM who existed before Abraham), who is incarnate in humanity.
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(((((Mark says it at the outset of his gospel (1:1).

The angel told Mary her child would be the Son of God (Luke 1:35).

John the Baptist said the same thing (John 1:34).

Nathanael said it (John 1:49).

Martha believed it (John 11:27).

The centurion said so (Matthew 27:54).

Jesus claimed that He said so (John 10:36).

Jesus clearly implies it in John 11:4.

The demons called Jesus the Son of God (Matthew 8:29; Luke 4:41; Mark 3:11).

The charge against Jesus was that He claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:43; John 19:7), a claim He never denied, and virtually admitted (Luke 22:70).

The Gospel of John was written to convince the reader that Jesus was the Son of God (John 20:31).

Why, you might ask, does Jesus not say so plainly. I think the answer is found in Matthew 16:15-17:

15 He said to them, “And who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven!” (Matthew 16:15-17).

Jesus did not want Peter and His disciples to believe He was the Son of God just because He said so. He wanted God to bring them to this conclusion, based upon the overwhelming evidence of Scripture and our Lord’s life and teaching.))))))
 
Jesus always spoke as not being of ‘this’ generation. When He called God His father He always meant it in an exclusive way. A way He could share but no one else could be. Everyone alive is generated by Adam. The man is the generating force the woman is the passive force. If God is the generator in that way what is Generated is naturally God. Always was, is , and yet to come.

Jesus say’s John the Baptist is the greatest man born of woman. So every man born of woman would have Adam as the source of generation. He is revealing that He is generated by God not Adam.
Matt 11-11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women no one has arisen greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
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So He follows that with the statement below to point the minds of the crowd to what He means when He say’s generation.
Matt 11-16
16 “But to what will I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to one another,
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Below He teaches that His testimony is greater than John’s and reveals where it originates. A testimony greater than John’s can’t be an earthly testimony
John 5-36
But I have a testimony greater than John’s. The works that the Father has given me to complete, the very works that I am doing, testify on my behalf that the Father has sent me.
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I must apologize, now realizing I did not address your OP directly. My previous post only references that Jesus chose to call Himself the Son of Man (rather than the Son of God, despite being both). Nevertheless, isn’t that simply awesome? … that the omnipotent one would come to us, and tell us that He is fully, truly, one of us.

“Why Can’t He Just say directly that I Am GOD/LORD once and for all and not say otherwise (in)other text.”

John’s gospel is all about Jesus identity as God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

1 John 1: 1-3 tells us again that Jesus is both God and Man.
… what was from the beginning, … the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us … and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
 
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HarryStotle said:
Clearly Jesus wasn’t being blasphemous because he was God.

So, no, the words of the Pharisees are not to be trusted because by saying he is God Jesus didn’t commit blasphemy.

The Pharisees were wrong so who is “trusting” them?
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If you and I were in place of the pharisees of that time, you will do more than that because there wasn’t any clear proof to ascertain HIS point
 
purestmoney said:
If you and I were in place of the pharisees of that time, you will do more than that because there wasn’t any clear proof to ascertain HIS point
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Most Jews at the time knew their Old Testament, especially the Psalms, the Torah and the Prophets. They would have understood Jesus’ references to the OT much better than we do today. Weighing his actions and teachings with the OT references, along with sincerity and self-reflection would have put most people into a place roughly between siding with the Pharisees, the doctors of the Law, or siding with Jesus. His miracles, personality and his eventual execution would have pushed most into one camp or other.

I think we are in much the same boat today. Clear proof? No.

The crucial issue, however, is more moral and spiritual than factual.
 
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There isn’t really any reference. That is interpretation, eisegesis, an act which is required in order to make Scripture fit the world-view of that non-Trinitarian Christian sect. There were others. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God” was interpreted as “In the beginning was the Plan, and the plan was with God (ie He possessed the idea) and the plan was pertaining to God”. And references to Jesus Christ coming down from heaven, of which there are a few had to be interpreted with a qualification “meaning that Jesus Christ was conceived as God’s plan, so the idea came from heaven but Jesus Christ was never in heaven until his ascension”.
 
whyeyeman said:
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Crusader13:
Could Jesus have simply said, “I am God, like my Father and both of US you shall worship.” Yes, but what I find interesting is that Jesus is conveying to them exactly this point, even without using such explicit language.
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Where?

(16 characters)
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There are several verses where Jesus uses the name “I AM”. It would make no sense for Jesus to use this divine name if He wasn’t in fact God. I mentioned one above In John 8:58, where He tells them “Before Abraham was, I am”. This was in direct response to their question of His age.

Another often mistranslated verse is Mark 6:50. Where Jesus is walking on Water. The correct translation from the Greek should read “Take courage, I Am. Fear not.”

In this same chapter when you read in verse 48 it says “He meant to pass them by.” Well in the Old Testament God did this same thing with Moses and Elijah. In Exodus 33: 19,22 it says
“And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord’;”
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“and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by;”
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Also in 1 Kings 19:11
“And he said, “Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by…”
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Jesus spoke in parables and riddles and even used miracles to shed light on His divinity because He knew many would not accept His message. Which is why He also says “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

He was telling them exactly who He was using language and references to scripture that He knew they would understand. The Pharisees new this as well, however, they failed to believe it.
 
I think alot of us are completely missing the perfection of his humility.
 
Yah this is a common argument made by Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

Notice Thomas said " My Lord and my God."
 
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