Jesus is not a legend

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How can I convince my agnostic friend that Jesus is not just a legend like King Arthur?
 
Lots of witness accounts, written down. Named individuals in history. Contemporary references to Jesus in annals of the time (i.e. Josephus, a contemporary Jewish historian).

Even people like Richard Dawkins, author of ‘The God Delusion’ accept that Jesus was a real living breathing historical figure, and he’s about as rabid an atheist as you can get!
 
Well my friend believes that he was perhaps a real person who claimed to be the messiah, but his story fell into myth and legend.
 
Well, ask him to consider how many disciples and apostles there were… St Paul’s letters, for example. These in particular are all documentary evidence of the early days of the Church.

The various accounts of the life of Jesus match up too well for it to be just legend. Christ was foretold too well by the Jewish prophets for him to just be another man.
 
Well I think he believes that Jesus was a man who claimed to be the messiah and had disciples, but all of his miraculous feats (ie the resurrection) is just legend that compiled over the years following his death.
 
YosefYosep said:
Well I think he believes that Jesus was a man who claimed to be the messiah and had disciples, but all of his miraculous feats (ie the resurrection) is just legend that compiled over the years following his death.
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So he was a man that gathered 12 apostles, trained them and once he died they went about preaching a lie? Oh and do not forget the little fact that all save John died horrible deaths without ever recanting one word.

If even 1 apostle had recanted at his death would not their executioners have used that to denigrate the fledging Church?

And they did this for what? Power, riches or massive delusion?

Yet the Church flourished despite all odds. The more it was persecuted the more it flourished.

In the end we must acknowledge that Jesus followers recognize His call and others will flee from Him and His teachings. :rolleyes:

👍
 
I find it hard to believe that a mere legend like King Arthur that is 2000 years old could become a household name, still be totally relevant 2000 years later and start the biggest religion in the world. 👍

Here’s a great Bible verse on the followers of Jesus:

Acts 5:34-39 said:
"But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered. So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”
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YosefYosep said:
Well I think he believes that Jesus was a man who claimed to be the messiah and had disciples, but all of his miraculous feats (ie the resurrection) is just legend that compiled over the years following his death.
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The burden of proof is on him to provide you the evidence to support his assertion. Ask him to provide some.
 
DaddyGirl said:
This information about the apostle’s deaths will not convince an atheist…because only one (or maybe two?) of their deaths are briefly mentioned in the bible and that’s it. No mention anywhere else until much later, but not from any reliable sources I don’t think.
We don’t really know for sure how most of them died or the circumstances and details surrounding their deaths.
According to historians at least, the stories we do have are mostly legend. Very colorful and dramatic legend, indeed. But I do think the Catholic church considers this information legend that became tradition as well, right?

It is unfortunate because if the gospels were written between forty-eighty years after Jesus died, many of the apostles may have already died as well by then.
Why didn’t the writers include the details of their deaths in the bible?
That kind of information would be important enough to include, I’d think. So maybe they did not know.
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40-80 years? Everything I have studied has most of the writings in the 55-70 AD timeframe. Makes a big difference in what and what is not included.
 
YosefYosep said:
This was sort of interesting

youtube.com/watch?v=OO-PMMx18aM
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yes Jesus’ resurrection was believed in immediately by many many people. There were many eyewitnesses. It absolutely happened. But if your friend is stubborn in his belief that Jesus was not raised from the dead, I don’t know if you can change his mind. Faith and belief in Jesus comes from the heart.
 
If your friend does not have faith then he will never be convinced.
 
Tell him to read something by Bart Ehrman.

He’s a biblical scholar and a Christian turned atheist… and he believes in a historical person named Jesus. He doesn’t believe that Jesus was God, but that’s another matter 🙂
 
aux1 said:
Tell him to read something by Bart Ehrman.

He’s a biblical scholar and a Christian turned atheist… and he believes in a historical person named Jesus. He doesn’t believe that Jesus was God, but that’s another matter 🙂
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I’d stay away from Bart Ehrman.
 
You can’t. Anybody invincibly ignorant to buy such a notion isn’t going to listen to anything you have to say. Instead, simply tell him that you’ve met Jesus and know irrefutably that He’s at least as real as the atheist friend is! Then proceed to live accordingly and be his friend. That’s the only way to win an argument against someone that unwilling to listen to reason.
 
DexUK said:
Lots of witness accounts, written down. Named individuals in history. Contemporary references to Jesus in annals of the time (i.e. Josephus, a contemporary Jewish historian).

Even people like Richard Dawkins, author of ‘The God Delusion’ accept that Jesus was a real living breathing historical figure, and he’s about as rabid an atheist as you can get!
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There is not one eyewitness account we have. Paul never met Jesus that we know of…he never claimed to. The writers of the gospels and Acts were not apostles. Josephes was not a contemporary. In fact we have not one contemporary writing about Jesus of Nazareth.

The gospels were written some 40-80 years after the fact…we have no writings of any of the original 12…not withstanding Catholic teaching to the contrary based on tradition.

While I do not believe Jesus of Nazareth was a “legend” I do believe the gospels were based on the liturgical cycles of the Jewish year…and the stories surrounding him were based on the retelling of OT stories. I believe some of the teachings used in the gospels were said and taught by Jesus of Nazareth…or loosly based on his teachings…and some are downright fabrications not necessarily based on Jesus actual words but what the faith community had come to believe about him…the gospels speak more of the writers beliefs decades and decades later than what Jesus actually said about himself.

I doubt you’ll get your agnostic friend to change his mind if he or she is knowledgable of modern biblical scholarship.
 
Baloo said:
I find it hard to believe that a mere legend like King Arthur that is 2000 years old could become a household name, still be totally relevant 2000 years later and start the biggest religion in the world. 👍

Here’s a great Bible verse on the followers of Jesus:
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Well King Arthur did it, and in less time 🙂 well, not the Religion part.
 
YosefYosep said:
Well I think he believes that Jesus was a man who claimed to be the messiah and had disciples, but all of his miraculous feats (ie the resurrection) is just legend that compiled over the years following his death.
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Tell him to offer his evidence for this claim. Otherwise, why should you feel any obligation to answer it?
 
Publisher said:
There is not one eyewitness account we have. Paul never met Jesus that we know of…he never claimed to. The writers of the gospels and Acts were not apostles. Josephes was not a contemporary. In fact we have not one contemporary writing about Jesus of Nazareth.
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John, the author of the fourth gospel, was one of the twelve apostles, isn’t it? So, why do you say that there was not one eyewitness account about Christ?

Also, Paul (originally named Saul) actually met the risen Christ on his way to Damascus, is it not? So, why do you say that Paul never met Christ?

Some of the evangelists were not one of the twelve apostles, but they were companions of at least one of the twelve. St. Luke, for example, was the constant companion of St. Paul, but must have also met St. Peter and assisted him in drawing his first Epistle. And, he probably was in close association, not merely with Peter and the other apostles, but also with Mary, the mother of Christ, for he wrote certain details about Christ’s birth and infancy that he would not have known had they not been disclosed to him by Mary herself or by apostles close to Mary.
 
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