Jesus is not BMITS. TONUD is wrong

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"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"
(Ezekiel 18:23)

**‘For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” ** says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”’
(Ezekiel 18:32)

“Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’”
(Ezekiel 33:11)

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
(1 John 4:7-11)

"16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us."
(1 John 4:16-19)
 
Lapsed,

I’m not sure to which parable you are referring.

I see from one of your posts that you’ve started the “long road home.” I am so HAPPY for you. I shall pray that you find reconciliation with the Church.

God bless you Lapsed (should you change that to ex-Lapsed? 🙂 ),

Kristin
 
discipleofJesus

With the greatest respect I don’t know what point you are making in your last post (#21).

God bless,

Kristin
 
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kristinma:
discipleofJesus

With the greatest respect I don’t know what point you are making in your last post (#21).

God bless,

Kristin
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kristin, in your original post you seemed to imply that if God sends all or even most non-Christians to Hell, He is a ‘megalomaniac’.

The verses from the Bible that I quoted in post (#21) were meant to refute this and show that if God does send all or most non-Christians to Hell, He is **not ** a ‘megalomaniac’.
 
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kristinma:
Lapsed,

I’m not sure to which parable you are referring.
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Matthew 21:28-31(NAB)::
28 “What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
29 He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
30 The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
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kristinma:
God bless you Lapsed (should you change that to ex-Lapsed? 🙂 )
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I’ve been considering what to do with my screen name, actually. I haven’t reached any conclusions yet. 🙂
 
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kristinma:
A number of denominations – among them various Christian fundamentalist groups in the US – promulgate the doctrine that only people who explicitly accept and proclaim Jesus as their Lord & Saviour are “saved.” Every one else is doomed.

Some will make allowances for people who never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel message – eg people belonging to lost tribes in the jungles of Sumatra. But by and large people in “Western” countries – people living in North and South America, Europe or Australasia – who do not proclaim Jesus as Lord & Saviour are doomed to eternal suffering in the fires of hell. So are most Muslims and Hindus.

I’ll call this the Theory Of Near Universal Damnation or TONUD. (Rhymes with “toe” and “bud.”) Under TONUD almost everyone is damned.

You see where TONUD leads? For a Jew, for example, it says most of the six million who died in Hitler’s concentration camps are now suffering an even worse fate at the hands of a “merciful” God. Meanwhile a concentration camp guard who repented before he died is now tasting the delights of heaven.

TONUD means that almost every Nobel Prize winning scientist of the last century is now in hell.

TONUD means that countless good people are now in hell while some real scumbags who wiggled their arms in the air and shouted “Lord, Lord” are in heaven.

TONUD paints a picture of a God as the Big Megalomaniac In The Sky (BMITS – rhymes with “bee” and “fits”). Better a God-free universe than one dominated by BMITS.

But here is the WORST of it. TONUD is not scriptural. That is not what the Bible says. Only by taking certain passages out of context and by ignoring large parts of holy scripture can you believe something like TONUD.

I don’t want to go into a long screed on what the Bible does say, but I’ll give ONE example that tends to counter TONUD.

(Mt 7:21-23)

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Creationism aside, TONUD has probably kept more people away from Jesus than any other false doctrine.

Jesus is NOT BMITS.

BMITS is not the God of the Bible.

TONUD is wrong.

Just had to get that off my chest.

God Bless

Kristin
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While it is true that we cannot know whether or not a person will go to hell, for God alone can decide that, we must also reject the universalist idea that nearly everyone will go to heaven, as long as he or she is a “good person.” One thing we do know is that salvation apart from Christ and the Catholic Church is the exception rather than the norm. For
“there is no salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven [than Jesus Christ] by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)
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Our Lord explicitly stated,
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” (St. Matthew 7:13, 14)
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Pope Pius IX explained the Church’s teaching this way:
“By faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord.”
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Being a Nobel Prize winning scientist will not get you into heaven, by the way.
 
discipleofJesus

You write:

“The verses from the Bible that I quoted in post (#21) were meant to … show that if God does send all or most non-Christians to Hell, He is not a 'megalomaniac.”

IN an earlier post (#13) you wrote:

“…I am inclined to believe that a lot of non-Christians, maybe most or maybe even all of them, will go to Hell, or at least won’t go to Heaven.”

My response to you is this.

Before you preach a doctrine like that you had best be VERY sure you are right. Because if it turns out to be a false doctrine you are committing a grave sin. You are responsible for keeping many people from believing in Jesus. Sins don’t get much graver than that.

In fact if there ever was a case of “when in doubt, don’t” this is it.

Remember Mt: 12:36 discipleofJesus:

But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

(And, yes, perhaps I shall have to to give an account of my words on this thread. It applies to all of us.)

The Catholic position, and the biblical justification behind it, is summarised with great clarity in “Can Non-Christians Be Saved?” by Kenneth J. Howell, This Rock, March 2004. You can find it at:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp

If you read “Can Non-Christians Be Saved?” you will see why I shall not even speculate on how many non-Christians are saved and how many are damned. And why I think it is wrong, unbiblical in fact, ever to say “So and so is in hell” or “so and so is destined for hell.”

Let me make one thing clear. If someone were to ask me what is the surest path to salvation I would give a one word answer: Jesus.

I cannot express how much I wish that all humanity would get to know Jesus, would proclaim Him as Lord and Saviour.

I also cannot imagine life without Jesus. I suppose I am that corniest of Christian parodies, a “Jesus Freak.” I need Jesus just to get me through the day.
 
I’d like to share some of my personal experiences of evangelisation.

In my experience nobody who has come to know Jesus has, in the end, rejected Him. They’ve fought with Him. They’ve tried to get away from Him. They’ve gone through period of being estranged from Him. But in the end they’ve always come back to Him.

Therefore, in my experience, the second part of John 3:18 has never applied. I’ve never seen someone who, having come to know Jesus, “stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son”

I’m not saying it never happens. All I’m saying is that, judging by my experiences, it must be rare. If someone, after coming to know Jesus, refuses to believe in the name of God’s one and only son, then, yes, he may well be condemned to hell.

But I doubt that happens often.

However note my rider, “having come to know Jesus.”

In my experience the problem is NOT what people do after they have come to know Jesus. The problem is effecting the introduction in the first place. And that is more difficult than you can imagine.

There is the easy assumption that in a country like the US or Australia everybody knows about Jesus. Certainly the word Jesus is blandished about all the time. I’m sometimes surprised no one has gotten around to marketing Jesus brand toiletries!

The trouble is not that no one has heard about Jesus but there are too many “Jesus’es” on the market and most of them are fakes; cheap knock-offs.

Let’s look at one such. Look at the Jesus marketed by Pat (“Kill Chavez”) Robertson. When you read and hear the preaching of this poor, unhappy soul do you recognise the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount? The Jesus who said:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:43-44)

Do you see in Robertson’s preaching the Jesus who said:

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” (Luke 6:37)

Where in Robertson’s preaching is the Jesus who dressed himself as an almost naked slave and washed his disciple’s feet? Can you imagine Pat Robertson washing anyone’s feet?

Where does Robertson preach about the Jesus of Gethsemane, the Jesus who, while being crucified said “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Or take the Jesus of Randall Terry, the same Randall Terry who said:

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good…Our goal is a Christian nation.”

Is Randall Terry the peacemaker who will be called a “son of God?” (Matthew 5:9)

If I reject the Jesus of Pat Robertson and Randall Terry am I rejecting Jesus? Or am I rejecting a fake Jesus?

And If I’m not a Christian how do I know the difference?

It is surprisingly difficult to get to know Jesus if you are not a Christian. Typically you are confronted with someone who preaches along the following lines:

You know that nurse who sat up all night with your sick child? The one who stayed on to help after your shift ended. The one you said you don’t know how you would have gotten through the night without her help? Well she’s going straight to hell because she’s a Hindu lady.

And you know that teacher all the kids love, the one who would do anything for his students, who puts in twice the hours of any other teacher? The one who helped your kid get through algebra? He’s also going to hell because he doesn’t profess Jesus.

In fact almost every one you know and admire is either in hell or is destined for hell.

I’m not going to hell. I may be an arrogant SOB and the companies I control may treat their workers badly and defraud their customers, but I’m saved because I profess Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

And you can be just like me.

See, that doctor over there? He spent three years in Sudan saving the lives of persecuted Christians. He risked his own life to do it and endured terrible hardship. Well he’s also going to hell.

But I AM SAVED.

If you don’t like it, don’t blame me. It’s God’s law. God set it up this way. God is LOVE.

I’m parodying; but only slightly.

Do you understand how insane this is?

Do you understand how someone confronted with this sort of bullying, hectoring – demented even – preaching could say “I want no part in this?”

And do you see that in saying that a person is not rejecting the Jesus who suffered the cross for us? May, in fact, by the very act of rejecting this kind of self-righteous bullying preaching, be proclaiming his belief in the Jesus who said “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7)

God bless you,

Kristin
 
i agree,. The ones who believe Jesus and walk with him are saved. Otherwise lets not speculate and lets leave it to God. Again, we trust in Jesus’ salvation. Otherwise, no guaranty.
 
Thanks for the reference (ex) Lapsed 🙂

And God bless you

Kristin
 
Anima Christi

I can only repeat what I have said a number of times.

My objection to TONUD is that is is a false doctrine which is keeping people from Jesus.

I think my posts #27 and #28 will answer the issues you raise.

I do respectfully urge you to read “Can Non-Christians Be Saved?” by Kenneth J. Howell, This Rock, March 2004. You can find it at:

catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp

God bless you,

Kristin
 
Wow this is something ive been struggling to understand for a while. I was raised Catholic but i didnt really understand alot about Catholicism. When i ask my grandmother about other relgions she denied the claim that ony christians have access to God and that the Catholic Church is tolerant of other faiths.Approximately a couple months ago im sitting in my religion class and the proffessor mentions a new catholic doctrine formulated by the former Pope. The doctrine is known as “The Declaration of OUr Lord Jesus Christ” The basic tenets of the document are about how not only how how all other relgions are superfluos and wrong but also about how non cathloic christian denominations have some sort of deficiency and that there denemonation is inadequete for salvation.
Ratzinger, the newest pope, recently published a book called Truth and Tolerance and although i havent read it i think i understand the argument he is trying to make. Which is basically if someone knows a certain in truth and if with holding that certain truth can injure someone than why simply for tolerance sake should we not share this truth. The problem however is that who is to determine what exactly is that truth.
Is the truth that Jesus is the only way to God because Christianity is the dominant faith of the world? Is it true because of its Scriptural foundation?
Allow me to take a moment introduce 2 quotes that i believe ar apropiate for this disscussion. THe first is from the Dalai Lama. As i have said before one of the “proofs” of the only way theory is found throughout the gospels (John 3:16 3:18 and others mentioned above) …" I refer to the claims each has of being the “one” true relgion. How are we to resolve this difficulty?..At the same time we have to find means of reconciling this belief with the reality of a multiplicity of similar claims. In practical terms, this involves individual practitioners finding a way at least to accept the validity of the teachings of other relgion while maintaining a whole hearted commitment to their own."

Also it has been suggested that we shouldnt use force to convert others. That we should preach other relgious practioners the gospel and rather allow non-christians to choose Jesus out of their own volition. However this too is a form of compulsion. It is not physical nor verbal but psycological in that the mere thought of being sentenced to endless suffering merely for something as trival as choosing the wrong faith is illogical. This reminds me of the other quote by Jean Jacques Rouseau who wrote in his book ON the Right of The Strongest " Force is a physical power: I do not see what morality can result from its effects. To yield to force is an act of necessity not of inclination." Although i have said previously that force can include phsycological, and verbal forms as well as physical if we omit the word physical from the above quote we still produce the same results in the Jesus is the only way theory. Only that this force is in the form of eternal sufferenig which asummedly no human wants to endure. (unless your a saddomachist) Thus because acception Jesus as the Savior as being a necessary condition to obtain a legitament relationship with God and in so doing prevents the person from being consumed by flames of hell this follows that it is out of an act of necessity and not out of our own propensity and because of this force i feel that it is wrong.

Although we could get into the relgious semantics of such a polemical relgious issue by using different perspective ( The Muslim argument against Jesus’s dvinity, The jewish argument agaisnt his Messiahship, The atheist argument about the exsistence of God, The Unitarian Universalist argument for inclusion of other relgions) i feel it is sufficient to leave my perspective as it is.

I hope some of this made sense. Cheers
 
Lastly Pat Robertson, although he is no saint, im sure has some redeemable qualites. I mean what about operation Blessing that were supposedly one of the first ones to respond to the Hurricane Katrina. What about Fred Phelps now there is a true Fundamenalist in the narrowist of terms.
 
Sagefrakrobatik

I hope and pray that nothing I have written will lead you to abandon our Catholic faith. The Church is the surest – by far – path to salvation.

What the Dalai Lama or your professors have to say may be interesting. Even what I have to say may be of passing interest.

But what’s IMPORTANT is what’s in scripture and the catechism.

Make sure you go to confession.

Attend mass.

Discuss any doubts with your spiritual adviser.

Trust in Jesus.

For me, I cannot get through the day without Jesus.

I count as one of my greatest blessings the fact that I am a Catholic. I cannot begin to describe what joy that brings to my life.

God bless you Sagefrakrobatik

Kristin
 
Sagefrakrobatik wrote:

“Is the truth that Jesus is the only way to God because Christianity is the dominant faith of the world?”

What on Earth gave you the idea that Christianity is the “dominant faith of the world?”

To be blunt, only an insular American could make a statement like that.

Let’s examine this.

There are NOMINALLY about 2 billion Christians. Fewer than half of these are in any sense “practising.”

There are 1.3 billion Muslims. Most of these seem to be practising.

My guess is that right now there are more practising Muslims than practising Christians. From that point of view Islam is the world’s dominant faith.

The dominant economies of the world are in North America and Europe. The United States may still, for now, be described as a sort of Christian country even though practising Christians are probably a minority.

The same definitely cannot be said for Europe. Today Europe is strongly secular. Well before the end of this century, maybe as soon as 2075, on current demographic trends, Europe will be a Muslim majority region. In fact, if we look at Europeans below retirement age, the majority of the Euroepean labour force could be Muslim majority before 2050.

(Do you understand the implications of that for traditional alliances?)

The two rising powers, China and India, each with more than three times the US population, are also in no sense Christian powers.

In Africa Islam seems to be making gains at the expense of Christianity.

Before too long the Americas (North & South) may well be the only region in the world where Christians outnumber other faiths.

A realistic perspective is this.

Christianity is not the world’s dominant religion in any sense.

Christians are likely to form a diminishing proportion of the world’s population for the foreseeable future.

In future the balance of power in global politics seems likely to swing in the direction of countries that have never in any sense been Christian.

God bless you Sagefrakrobatik,

Kristin
 
kristin,
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kristinma:
discipleofJesus

You write:

“The verses from the Bible that I quoted in post (#21) were meant to … show that if God does send all or most non-Christians to Hell, He is not a 'megalomaniac.”

IN an earlier post (#13) you wrote:

“…I am inclined to believe that a lot of non-Christians, maybe most or maybe even all of them, will go to Hell, or at least won’t go to Heaven.”

My response to you is this.

Before you preach a doctrine like that you had best be VERY sure you are right. Because if it turns out to be a false doctrine you are committing a grave sin. You are responsible for keeping many people from believing in Jesus. Sins don’t get much graver than that.

In fact if there ever was a case of “when in doubt, don’t” this is it.

Remember Mt: 12:36 discipleofJesus…
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In my first response (posts #12, #13), I posted numerous Biblical verses relevant to the topic of who will be saved and who will not be saved. I then stated clearly (new bold and underline emphasis to show key words)
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discipleofJesus:
I do not know for sure how God will deal with non-Christians after judgement. But, in light of these verses, especially John 3:18 and John 3:36, I am inclined to believe that a lot of non-Christians, maybe most or maybe even all of them, will go to Hell, or at least won’t go to Heaven.
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kristinma:
IN an earlier post (#13) you wrote:

“…I am inclined to believe that a lot of non-Christians, maybe most or maybe even all of them, will go to Hell, or at least won’t go to Heaven.”

My response to you is this.

Before you preach a doctrine like that you had best be VERY sure you are right. Because if it turns out to be a false doctrine you are committing a grave sin. You are responsible for keeping many people from believing in Jesus. Sins don’t get much graver than that.

In fact if there ever was a case of “when in doubt, don’t” this is it.
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I have made my position clear (see my above quote with new bold and underline emphasis to show key words).

You seem to be preaching that God is a ‘megalomaniac’ if He sends all or most non-Christians to hell (correct me if I have misunderstood what you are preaching or if I have stated your position wrongly)

If this is what you are preaching then
  1. How do you know God will not send all or most non-Christians to hell (see the Biblical verses I quoted in posts #12, 13#)? If God is going to send all or most non-Christians to hell, don’t you think what you said or implied (i.e. God is a ‘megalomaniac’ (which He is not!) if He sends all or most non-Christians to hell) is a sin?
  2. You said “Before you preach a doctrine like that you had best be VERY sure you are right. Because if it turns out to be a false doctrine you are committing a grave sin. You are responsible for keeping many people from believing in Jesus. Sins don’t get much graver than that.”
Thanks for the advice, but you should also take your own advice, what you are preaching (again if i have misunderstood what you are preaching then correct me) can also prevent people from converting. If people who follow another religion think what you are preaching represents the teachings of the Bible, they may choose not to even consider converting to Christianity because they may think it is not necessary to become Christian (or to go through many hardships with their family etc) to go to Heaven (or to avoid going to Hell) since they may think it is very likely that they do not need to convert to go to Heaven (or avoid Hell).

Now I repeat for emphasis “I do not know for sure how God will deal with non-Christians after judgement. But, in light of these verses, especially John 3:18 and John 3:36, I am inclined to believe that a lot of non-Christians, maybe most or maybe even all of them, will go to Hell, or at least won’t go to Heaven.”

What do you think about the Biblical verses I have quoted in my first response (posts #12, #13), especially John 3:18 and John 3:36?
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kristinma:
Remember Mt: 12:36 discipleofJesus…
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“But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken”
(Matthew 12:36)

Thanks for reminding me, although I am usually very careful with my words (often using words such as ‘seems’, ‘from what I understand’)

God bless you
 
kristin,
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discipleofJesus:
If people who follow another religion think what you are preaching represents the teachings of the Bible, they may choose not to even consider converting to Christianity…
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I meant:

If people who follow another religion think what you are preaching is true (even though what you are preaching is not true since God will send all or most non-Christians to hell * and God is not a ‘megalomaniac’) they may choose not to even consider converting to Christianity…*
 
I think, discipleofJesus, that we have both stated our respective positions to the best of our ability and should let the matter rest.

God bless you,

Kristin
 
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kristinma:
I think, discipleofJesus, that we have both stated our respective positions to the best of our ability and should let the matter rest.

God bless you,

Kristin
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ok kristin, that sounds fair.

God bless you
 
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kristinma:
. . . .Today Europe is strongly secular. Well before the end of this century, maybe as soon as 2075, on current demographic trends, Europe will be a Muslim majority region. In fact, if we look at Europeans below retirement age, the majority of the Euroepean labour force could be Muslim majority before 2050.

. . . .The two rising powers, China and India, each with more than three times the US population, are also in no sense Christian powers.
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Without respect to BMITS and TONUD, the facts stated in your post #35 have enormous implications for near-term geopolitics.
 
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